Is it safety or separation?

[OneFlakyMaker]

When opposing transgender people in women's spaces, are you looking for safe spaces or separate spaces?

They may overlap but are not the same thing, and while a lot of the discussion is focused on safety, the tone and some arguments hint that addressing safety won't be enough for many people to feel comfortable. Instead, a place without males is sought.

I read one woman described it "At the club we used the women's bathroom to get a break from interacting with men".

I'm sorry for what has happened to you that's left you feeling this way. I hope you have good support.

On this, you are wrong. As a PP notes, if you remove the man, you remove the risk, regardless of who is enabling and supporting him.

You don't appear to be listening. No one is 100% safe. They are just safer.

Nobody has ever suggested that. What i am pointing out is why i don't feel safe in single sex spaces. It is bewilderment that other people do based on things like women not being able to meet the formal criteria of a rapist.

To answer the OP:

Single sex spaces are not only for protecting female people from any male person who means them physical harm.

There is no evidence at all that the group of male people with transgender identities commit sex and violent crime at the same rate or less than the general female population in the UK. It would have to be proven that they did for even a logical argument to be had about that specific aspect of safeguarding.

However, safety is but one aspect of the safeguarding needs for female people. There are numerous harms.

Harms include:
-Rape and sexual assault.
-Violence.
-Sexual abuse that is not rape or sexual assault.
-Sexual abuse that also includes solo sexual acts or using the experience in future sexual acts.
-Any other abuse that may include verbal abuse, intimidation in any way etc.
-A male person's presence where female people need privacy and dignity.
-A male person's presence where female people need to feel safe from any male person's presence (over the age of about 8 years old).
-Female people self-excluding knowing that there may be a male person accessing that provision.

Narrowing the discussion to sex and violence offences does not remove these other harms from consideration for single sex spaces. However, the point is, why should any female person be subject to higher risk of any of these harms just to allow a group of male people with a philosophical belief about their identity that doesn't reflect material reality access?

I specifically said I didn’t feel safe around anyone.

however, it is statistically fact that I am more safe around just women than I am around women and men.

And again, I’m sorry for what you experiences but allowing men into women’s spaces isn’t the answer.

Yeah i don't see it as ll that safer.

fair enough. Please do look after yourself

Understood. But nonetheless, you are.

The likelihood of this happening is extremely low. You were very unlucky.

Digital penetration can't get you pregnant.
Penises can also pass on STDs.
I guarantee those possibilities would be on the mind of a woman who has been raped.

Nobody said it is. I am just bewildered that women automatically drop their guard around other women. I dont see women as that safe at all.

You are blaming women for men raping?

Is that because you don't understand crime statistics?

No you dont think "oh thank God I couldn't have got pregnant" after youre violated by anyone. This is like parents who allow their homosexual teens more sexual freedom with their peers based on the idea they cannot conceive so its fine to have sex.

No its becauae I've met enough women who are harmful to not feel particularly safer around them.

Ive also seen female sexual abusers get off with their crimes as they were perceived as victims. So the statistics for me are skewered anyway. There arent more female sex offenders than ,male ones, but there are more than we know.

I didn't say that.
I said that the possibility of pregnancy or contracting an STD would be on the mind of any woman who has been raped.

Female sex offenders often offend with men - they don't tend to operate on their own. The big threat is still men, as most women in a female space are not going to attack another woman. That might change if they could come in with a man of course - but that simply supports the basic premise that we should exclude all men.

Letting trans identifying men in definitely won't make us be or feel safer.

Lofty, your experience is obviously colouring your attitude. Naturally. However, I don't think it's healthy for you to argue about risks generally, based on your specific experience.

Because People are just going to pushback on the basis of statistical likelihood.

You have made it quite clear why you think as you do, and people are sympathetic. But in terms of women's general safety and the reason why we need sex segregation, I'm afraid it's irrelevant, for the simple reason that we cannot eliminate all risk.

we can't remove risky women from women's spaces I'm afraid.

I really annoys me that women like you have to explain why they are wary and frightened of men, to justify why men shouldn't be somewhere where they shouldn't have been in the first place.
I'm so sorry that you've had these experiences and I wish you didn't feel like you had to write about them to explain to idiots why we should have single sex facilities .

💯

There are many more sexual and other assaults committed by men which never get reported to the police, or never are prosecuted.

Basically your message is, women are just as likely to hurt women as men are, therefore there is no point to single sex spaces.

You are wrong.

Plus safety is not the only reason for single sex spaces. We like them in certain circumstances. Women and men want them.

Nobody aha argued with needing sex segregation. What i am arguing is that you arent as safe around women as you believe and especially young girls are not

I never said I feel SAFE in single sex spaces.

objectively, however, I am SAFER.

No my argument is not that. My argument is that you arent safe in a single sex space and more women have perverted interests or enable sex offenders than you know. So always take precaution with everyone. Don't encourage your daughters that it's fine to get naked in front of anyone who is a woman, things like that.

Thats not true. They seek out men who share their desires so they can act them out. This comes from the idea that women arent ever really repaonsible and a man coerced them into it.