Men in women’s groups.

[gingangirly]

Really unsure if I’m being unreasonable, but what do others think?

I belong to a FB group for women over 65 in my town. They have lots of get togethers, at least a couple a week. A few months ago there was a vote after a man requested to join. The overwhelming majority said no. If they want a similar group, start their own. Fair enough.

However there is a trans woman that has been welcomed with open arms. He would NOT pass as a woman, not quite a bloke in a wig but certainly you would know he was trans.

What do people think about this? Acceptable or not? I’m am totally the ‘live and let live’ but seems a bit disingenuous to ban men but not trans women?

What is the difference in your opinion ?

Edited: I note you say there is a difference because they ‘identify’ as female. But what does this actually change? They are not female in anyway.

Their identity is based on their philosophical belief and is not based on material reality. So why should this be considered significant to allow one male person access and one to be excluded.

There isn’t a difference. They’re both just men.

Nope it’s not obvious otherwise I wouldn’t ask? Why should a man with a genuine interest in the topic be excluded but a trans identifying male who may just be seeking a friend group be admitted?

Men who don’t respect women’s boundaries.

This is actually a significant difference. It really does come down to respecting female people’s boundaries. And in cases of other female people in the group, whether other female people respect those boundaries.

I don’t think some women understand that if a group was formed for female people then letting in male people when it is known that enough of the group rejects male people is ignoring those women’s, those who don’t want male people included, boundaries. If the women dismissing other’s boundaries are doing this with full knowledge that they are doing this, fine. But I wonder if they acknowledge that they are doing this.

Yeah I understand some people wouldnt like it, just stating my opinion 😊

I guess I can understand how they would feel if they wished to 'change sex' or felt they were born into the wrong body. I can accept that and I can understand that. Agreed it doesnt change the biology but that personally doesnt bother me.

Yes biologically they are both men. But I can see a difference between a man who wishes to stay as a man (which of course is the majority of men) and men who feel they are female.

So it’s out of pity? Feeling sorry for them?

Because if a man identifies as a man he wont join a group that says its for females. Just like I wouldn't join a man's club.

No it's out of understanding.

So it is because they wish to change sex that you consider them different to the other male who was rejected.

If a male adult person felt that they were a child, do they think they should be accepted in a children’s group?

Why do you make allowances for ‘sex’ vs any other unchangeable aspect of a person’s identity?

That difference is just inside their heads though. It's just based on their own self image and whether they project their own sexist ideas about what types of minds men have and what types of minds women have onto other people as well.

Outside those men's heads, what is the actual difference between them?

Do you mean understanding that the person ‘wishes’ to be something they are not? And that the person should be treated as they demand and not as they are in reality?

But the OP says a man who identifies as a man did want to join the group and was refused. That's the point if the thread.

Of course a male person would join a female only group if they wanted to and was allowed. A man asked to join this group already and was rejected. There are many reasons why a male who did not have a transgender identity would want to join the female group.

Well that's the same as if someone identifies as a potato does that make them a potato. Of course it doesnt. But again I can see a difference with issues of sex

men who feel they are female.

but what does it mean to 'feel female'?

what is this female feeling that all women (apparently) share?

Why? What's special about sex?

What about nationality? If someone "feels" French should they be more welcome in a French expat group than someone who just enjoys French culture?

If someone "feels" like a librarian can they join CILIP when someone who just likes books can't?

So you understand there is inconsistency and incoherence to your own position. But you choose to make the exception. Why do you make the exception for sex?

Please don’t say because ‘you understand’. Please tell us why you choose to treat sex differently compared to any other aspect of identity that is not based on material reality about themselves.

Is it because you choose to be kind? Or is it because you are in a privileged position to not be concerned that a female only group will no longer be female only.

Can you explain what in your view it is to feel female while being male?

i can see the difference between men who want to be men and men who dont

They are still men though

men who like rugby and me. Who like football are different but still men

men who want to be nurses and men who want to be pilots -again just different types of men

maybes if women were not punished so much over their lives because of their biology it would not matter so much

For me I can see it as a possibility. Whereas there is no possibility to be a potato. It is possible for a person to feel they were born into the wrong body. The brain and body being separate.

You would need to ask a transwoman. But I can understand how you can feel you were born into the wrong body. I didnt realise my opinion was so important to so many people!

How do you know? If they think a trans woman is a woman, they'd surely assume a trans man was male.