Men in women’s groups.

[gingangirly]

Really unsure if I’m being unreasonable, but what do others think?

I belong to a FB group for women over 65 in my town. They have lots of get togethers, at least a couple a week. A few months ago there was a vote after a man requested to join. The overwhelming majority said no. If they want a similar group, start their own. Fair enough.

However there is a trans woman that has been welcomed with open arms. He would NOT pass as a woman, not quite a bloke in a wig but certainly you would know he was trans.

What do people think about this? Acceptable or not? I’m am totally the ‘live and let live’ but seems a bit disingenuous to ban men but not trans women?

I'm saying it's ok with me. And everyone is asking me to explain this in great depth.

Nope you have not explained.

If it is a feeling that 2 or more people can feel and communicate about it has a word in the english language or a list of words.

So far you have not explained how the women and 1 man share a commonality which has nothing to do with their bodies or how that commaonality is not shared by the women and the other man

But nothing to say about the fact they’ve already rejected a man?

I have

If I try to explain something and a lot of people can’t understand my assumption would be that I have explained it very poorly and that I am at fault

If they have let a man (TiM) join then they are in breach of the SC ruling because they have told another man he cannot join (non-TiM) because it is a 'women only' group, and this is discrimination. They either need to let men join - admit they are a mixed sex group - or ask the TiM to leave.

Bully for you. Presumably you are unaware that this FB group is now acting illegally?

So you support single sex spaces and single sex groups for those who want them, presumably?

Yes, they are legally a woman. But that cuts no ice with the SC ruling, which says that sex is biological. As the judges said, no one falls in love with a certificate.

But it being ok with you is irrelevant. To make the argument that this trans woman should be allowed to join the group because you don't mind is a terrible point to make - in a debating competition that would get you zero points. You can't argue for something that affects millions of people just on the basis that you don't mind.

No you have not. You have said something about the TiMs feelings but not acknowledged the feelings of the other man. Why are you prioritising the feelings of one of the men over the other?

What you’ve described perfectly mirrors how we’ve got to this madness in the first place. Ordinary bloke is excluded - fine. Man puts on dress and says he’s a woman - oh do come on in dear and make yourself at home!

Why?? I thought we all knew it was still Clark Kent even though he took off the glasses? Why are people - and women in particular - so keen to let the fox into the hen house? I can only assume it’s moronic people pleasing.

In my opinion he - the trans womsn should not have been allowed to join.

So can I see the difference. A TiM joining a women only group (only now it's mixed sex) is there for validation. The non-TiM is probably looking for hook-ups or is interested in whatever the group discusses. Quite a difference.

Aaah but what if the TIM is a lesbian? Probably looking for hook ups too maybe? 🤔 And before anyone misunderstands me, I don't believe that a TIM can be a lesbian but they do so that's why I posed the question

But by the same token if you had a stroke, say, or a tumour or a serious head injury, it would change your brain but you’d also still be the same person.

Exactly
you remain the same person
you would not change sex
yiu would not aquire additional female organs

Not necessarily. Damage to the brain can definitely change someone

Look I'm not going on and on anymore. I dont have a problem with it. I dont see why I need to over explain my feelings on the matter. Just accept the fact that not all women have a problem with it 🤷‍♀️

This group was described as just being on Facebook. That means that the person who set it up (or someone else that they've handed control to) is in charge. I don't think there's been an explanation of whether the group moderator works as a (hopefully benevolent) dictator, or if the moderator would attempt to run it by consensus, or by inviting members to vote on policy.

It might actually be best if the moderator said, "This is my group, and you can accept my decisions or decide to leave". At least that way things are clear, and the moderator can shut down any attempt to make an extensive argument out of it. I don't think the Supreme Court decision has much bearing here. If a group on Facebook says, "We'll welcome anyone who calls themselves a woman", I can't see the law getting involved. Nor would someone have any recourse if the group wouldn't let them join.

Edit to say, the first posting tells us about "a trans woman that has been welcomed with open arms". It sounds pretty clear what the group consensus is.

Erm the OP asked for others opinions. Sorry mine the dont match with other's!

Absolutely, same as losing a leg would. But just because you’re behaving differently or feel different doesn’t make you somehow a different person from the one you were.

There is a big difference. I've seen documentaries on the effects of brain injuries. The person can be completley different. But not by losing a leg!

You should talk to the families of people who have suffered life changing injuries about whether their loved one is still the same person.

But none of this is relevant to your assertion that a man can have a mind that is somehow objectively, meaningfully, in a way that anyone outside his head can perceive, closer to that of "women" than other men.

Because to do that you'd need to show that

Women have similarities of thought that are nothing to do with our shared experiences of having female biology (not just the biological experiences, but the social experiences: how people treat us, how we see ourselves because of it, how we relate to media and cultural portrayls of women)

This trans "woman" also has those similarities of thought

No other men also have those similarities.

No women don't have those similarities.

Do you see? It's not enough to say "he feels like what he thinks a woman feels like and that's good enough for me" bevause it's not just about how he feels, it's also about whether that feeling has any relevance whatsoever to the lived experience of being female.

Honestly, because you are putting forward some pretty sexist and extreme views here. I realise you haven't thought about it that deeply but that's what people are reacting to.

The claim that women's minds are somehow all a bit the same and it's our minds and not our bodies that make us different to men is always going to land badly with a lot of women because it's exactly the sort of thinking that leads to "women just naturally prefer lower paid caring jobs" and "women don't have the right type of minds for STEM".

We've cone a long way fighting those old fashioned sexist ideas but many of us still remeber them so it's not surprising women will want to challenge anything that seems to be going backards and baking those sort of attitudes back into society even when it's something seemingly trivial like a women-only hobby group. Because if society decides a bit of sexism is ok it makes it harder to fight it when it starts to creep into the big things.