If someone tells you who they are...

[IfSomeoneTellsYouWhoTheyAre]

You have to believe them, right? That's what the TRAs always seem to claim anyway. So when a man tells us he's actually a woman we have to tell "her" how stunning and brave she is, and how "she" is a much better woman than we will ever be. OK, a little bit of hyperbole there, but you get my drift. So why is it, that when we tell a TRA that we don't have a gender identity, and aren't CIS, do they tell us that we are wrong about ourselves. Why don't they believe that we know who we are just as much as their TW friends do?

I've just come back from what was meant to be a lovely, long overdue, few days away with my oldest friends. We've all known each other for 20-30+ years but haven't managed to all be together due to families, work etc for more than the odd meal.

Somehow the subject came onto trans-rights and so on. Turns out, I'm the only one who doesn't believe that TWAW, or that sex matters in some circumstances. I've been told that I am CIS, even when I tried to explain that I don't have a gender. Apparently the fact that I describe myself as a woman means I'm assigning a gender to myself. I was also told that sex is more complicated than we learn at school, and told that I am "technically intersex" because I have PCOS. According to the person who told me that intersex means I'm not actually male or female. How can I be cis then? (I'm aware that intersex is an outdated term, and that everyone IS male or female. There is no inbetween)

One friend, who is educated to a very high level, insists there is a lot of evidence out there that proves this, and also proves that trans kids commit suicide if not affirmed. When I asked for some links, I was told to google it. Oh, but if I found so called evidence that proved the opposite it was fake.

Also the Cass review was poorly done and transphobic. The ban on puberty blockers is transphobic. And one woman has allowed her 4 year old to socially transition. FFS.

I don't know what the point of this post is. I'm just sad.

PS have name changed as potentially outing, but have been around since the mouldies days.

TL:DR I've just lost my oldest and closest friends because I refuse to accept that I am a cis-intersex-person, or that humans can change sex.

It’s sad. It is. Can you hang in there and wait for them to wake up? It won’t be too much longer..l and when it happens they’ll swear they knew all along.

Hopefully they will slowly slowly catch up. At least the 4 year old has a lot of time between now and the spectre of cross sex hormones.

Can you/your friends agree to disagree on this for now?

Im sorry OP 💐 I have lost a group of friends recently over this so I know how it feels xx it's why I never raise the topic

as someone on here wisely said "you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"

I was also told that sex is more complicated than we learn at school, and told that I am "technically intersex" because I have PCOS.

How offensive is that!? It'd be the end of the friendship for me.

I don't know if they'll come round at some point. But tbh I'm not sure I can forgive them. @Queen0fTheNorth is right. Being told I'm intersex (but also a cis-woman) is so fucking offensive. I've given birth ffs. They were the friends that were there for me when I had a miscarriage. How did that happen if I'm not female? So offensive.
I think I'm going to have a hot bath and cry myself to sleep. Then get up and get on with life tomorrow. Let's face it, it's women don't have time to sit around and wallow!

You sound perfectly reasonable to me, and I’m sorry that you experienced this. I had this quite a few years ago, after a genial discussion ‘entre amies’ turned one friend into a robot that could only grate out ‘trans women are women’ . Weird. I thought I’d been dropped after that non-discussion but have been invited to several parties, and met her new polycule so hey, I guess we’re still mates after all.

I know it's not really the point, but the quotation is actually "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. People know themselves much better than you do. That's why it's important to stop expecting them to be something other than who they are" - Maya Angelou

People call tell you what they like, it doesn't mean it's true, but these people with their actions and words have shown you that they are ignorant, lack critical thinking and are captured by a misogynistic ideology that actually has no internal logic and requires, coercian and contortion to justifiy itself.

They were also horribly rude and insensitive (they are also not even accurate and are very ill informed and offensive to almost everyone in terms of PCOS and "intersex" or DSD as it is better termed).

Protect yourself, mourn the friendship if you need to. I am so so sorry.

Edited to give proper credit

I’m so sorry, that’s bloody awful of them, how hideously insensitive and cruel. You have support here, I know it’s not the same, but I do find it helps that there are legions of us that understand the material reality of biological sex. Sending you a hug 🤗

I'm really sorry OP. That sounds incredibly rough. Well done for keeping your mind intact! 😬

I thank the heavens for MN tbh. Having been in a similar situation I think id have lost my marbles if it wasn't for the folk on here.

I have just come back from a weekend away and I did not raise the subject but it was talked about. Pleasantly surprised all were TWAM. I am not sure the view was the same 12 months ago 🤔.
Big hugs and look after yourself. They are delusional

I’m so sorry - hope you’re ok. Your posts make perfect sense and i am so sorry you weren’t heard by people you know and trust. Xxx

You can buy them each a copy of Helen's book for Christmas and wrap it in the SC judgement pointing out the law.

It’s completely barking mad. I can’t believe it’s unacceptable to say “humans can’t change sex.” My closest friend is full on TWAW. I keep my views quiet, but I’m so sad about it because I can’t stand to hear her go on so we don’t talk so much anymore.

Sorry @IfSomeoneTellsYouWhoTheyAre that's really upsetting and offensive, I'm also sending you an un-mumsnetty hug.

There's definitely been a shift in the general perception of gender ideology, a few years back people would look at me like I'd grown a second head when we discussed it. They fell into two camps, the be kind-ers and the one's that thought I was a tin foil hat wearing loon, the be kind camp was by far the most frustrating and upsetting.

I hope they come to their senses soon and you get an apology for the weird and IMO shitty comments about you somehow being both Cis and intersex, especially from such close friends who know everything you've been through

Thank goodness for MN, as a PP said. The sensible, knowledgeable, and hilarious women here have helped me to deal with this, it's such a good resource for information and support when everyone else is shouting you down for being a bigot, or seems to have wilfully switched off their brains to #BeKind.

Edited for spelling

Obviously you know you're not what your ignorant friends call intersex, OP, but how could anyone be that if they have PCOS, when the O stands for ovaries?

It's become apparent over the years in this war that just because someone has a string of degrees doesn't mean they've got any common sense.

I feel for you as I too have lost dear friends this way. I’m trying to come to terms with it.

The tide is turning, but not quickly enough for you OP - I'm so sorry you were stranded on a sandbar with people who used to be friends. It's very sad to see people you once liked and respected get carried away by genderwoo.

A true friend wouldn’t be hurtful and judgemental. Friends support each other through difficult times and celebrate each other’s successes. A friend is someone that even if you don’t agree on something, they’ll not try to force you to agree with them nor ridicule you for your opinions.

My friends are a great bunch of people. We don’t agree on everything but we respect one another.

I’m so sorry about your situation but don't think of them as friends anymore. Think of them as just people that you used to know.

So sorry, OP, that's really misery making. They sound very ill-informed and so rude, too, especially knowing the things you have been through. The tide is beginning to turn and maybe they will come back to sanity. Remember they were friends once but not any more and go on with your life. 💐

If you imagine how hard it would be to change yourself to believe that sex change is possible, it's even harder to change someone else's mind.
They have to work out the truth and haven't yet reflected on the facts, while they've read some nonsense that must have been written as though it was the truth.
Unless their contradictions impact them (rather than just you) they may choose to live with delusion to fit in and to "be kind".
Back away and save your sanity!

How dare they tell you that you aren't really a woman because of PCOS, but simultaneously tell you that any man that says he's a woman totally is.

That is offensive and illogical, there is nothing about PCOS that can move you out of the woman category, under any batshit belief system, that doesn't also move all these men out of it as well.

If you want to stay friends, you have to avoid the topic, but if they ever bring it up again just reiterate how offensive it is that they stated you weren't a woman after you had said you were.

I have one group of friends that includes a women with a niece who has a trans identity. When we get together, and the issue comes up, some members of the group talk rubbish as they think it’s showing support. I know they don’t believe what they are saying (we have discussed the issues at other times) but they do believe that it is helpful and supportive for this aunt to hear it. All of us in the group would love things to be better for the niece and her family - we have different beliefs about what helps and what hinders. I remain quiet as there is no benefit from my interjections at that point in time. They all know my views.

I suspect the conflict with your friends is rooted in your fundamental approach to life which appears to be one of over simplification.

Firstly, the quote by American poet Maya Angelou:

"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

emphasises the importance of paying attention to someone's actions and words, as they reveal their true character and intentions. It's mean't as a warning not to dismiss obvious character flaws often revealed initially that might come back to bite you if you continue with the relationship. Hence it's often quoted in dealing with domestic violence relationships.

Secondly, your friends aren't so much disbelieving that you are not 'CIS' (a woman who was born female), rather they are suggesting a 'woman' is more than their reproductive characteristics in that they have particular behavioural, psychological & cultural associations more associated with their sex. And the word 'sex' denoting characteristic distinctions between males & females includes
not just reproductive distinctions but behavioural ones hence trans identification to the opposite reproductive sex they were born.

Now you might say males & females share personality traits therefore just having traits more common to the other sex doesn't make you a man or woman but that in essence is a personal opinion that's influenced by your individual values & perceptions about reality. Because both reproductive & behavioural characteristics distinguish males from females, an individual can identify with or with one more than the other or interpret one being more defining more than the other. Ultimately this is a personal subjective choice .

Lastly in an ironic way you have shown your friends 'who you are' in your personal values on how you define yourself which you are certainly entitled to AND that you might have a tendency for oversimplification that they ought to be now more aware of.

Anyhow, here's a video of Maya & Oprah explaining the relevance of the quote.

https://www.oprah.com/oprahs-lifeclass/when-people-show-you-who-they-are-believe-them-video

What a load of old cobblers.