Women’s privacy and dignity

[Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks]

I’ve just been to my local leisure centre swimming pool and while I was in the changing rooms a woman walked in from the showers, fully naked. I averted my eyes, and she walked quite close past me in a way which to me (and I fully accept I may well have imagined it) felt a bit pointed. I felt vaguely uncomfortable and embarrassed in the same way I would have if a man had walked in naked.

My impression is that the vast majority of people on this forum believe that it is a fundamental breach of women’s privacy and dignity if people with male biology (whether cisgender men or trans women) share changing facilities with women. Yet they do not consider that it undermines a woman’s privacy or dignity to have to get changed in front of other women, or to see other women naked.

I understand that many women have had experiences with men’s exhibitionist or voyeuristic behaviour which makes them specifically uncomfortable being undressed around men, or being around men who are undressed. But I’ve often seen the argument on here that it equally undermines men’s privacy and dignity to have to share changing facilities with women.

So my question is, do you think privacy and dignity are not infringed by having to get changed in front of people of the same sex? If not, why not?

I live in Australia where bathrooms are shared & I'm a CIS woman so irrelevant.

Are you, aye?

But all men are men. And they’re not allowed in women’s single sex spaces.

Would you agree with obeying that law?

Furthermore, I say no. No to men in women’s single sex spaces. As the law permits. And has been affirmed.

Would you ignore my no?

What brings you to a UK site for mothers? Why do you care what UK women do?

So what?

all men are men and do not belong in women’s spaces

and in the UK the law agrees

suck it up buttercup

Could you answer my question please. Thank you.

No lesbians have been convicted.

Lesbians are female and don't have penises.
Males are the predator rapey sex and have penises.

Lesbians are 0 risk to women.
Males are 100% risk to women, no matter what they wear.

But it never takes long for the homophobia to come out in you MRAs.

As you know I'm not the one with comments being deleted so no, not abusive unless you consider disagreement abuse.

The data I posted regarding hate crimes & trans people as you already know.

You need a penis to commit sexual assault… just ask Harvey Weinstein.

There is no evidence at all that the group of male people with transgender identities commit sex and violent crime at the same rate or less than the general female population in the UK. It would have to be proven that they did for even a logical argument to be had about that specific aspect of safeguarding.

However, safety is but one aspect of the safeguarding needs for female people. There are numerous harms.

Harms include:

-Rape and sexual assault.
-Violence.
-Sexual abuse that is not rape or sexual assault.
-Sexual abuse that also includes solo sexual acts or using the experience in future sexual acts.
-Any other abuse that may include verbal abuse, intimidation in any way etc.
-A male person's presence where female people need privacy and dignity.
-A male person's presence where female people need to feel safe from any male person's presence (over the age of about 8 years old).
-Female people self-excluding knowing that there may be a male person accessing that provision.

"It's relevant because trans women aren't a risk to women as you have not been able to provide evidence that they are."

So, can you now post data or evidence to support that male people with transgender identities being included in female single sex spaces have not caused any of the following harms:

-Rape and sexual assault.
-Violence.
-Sexual abuse that is not rape or sexual assault.
-Sexual abuse that also includes solo sexual acts or using the experience in future sexual acts.
-Any other abuse that may include verbal abuse, intimidation in any way etc.
-A male person's presence where female people need privacy and dignity.
-A male person's presence where female people need to feel safe from any male person's presence (over the age of about 8 years old).
-Female people self-excluding knowing that there may be a male person accessing that provision.

We have repeatedly told you that safeguarding is not based on risk of physical assault or rape alone.

That you have ignored this and continued on a path of posting only data around those physical risks is not something that I have to explain to anyone reading.

"It's relevant because trans women aren't a risk to women as you have not been able to provide evidence that they are."

Any male person above about 8 years old is indeed a risk to cause a female person harm when they enter into a female single sex space. There is no 'data' for all these harms because most of these harms are not a reportable matter.

No you don't. You live in America. I even think I know where.

In Australia we do NOT say 'bathrooms'. Only silly yanks say 'bathroom'. We say TOILETS.

You're a cis MALE and your language and disrespect of rape survivors proves this.

Your comments aren't being deleted because nobody is reporting them, because we prefer them to stand so anyone reading this thread can see how little regard you have for women.

The data about hate crimes is completely irrelevant because women don't have the same protection as trans people in law, so there is no control group.

The most pertinent question on the thread.
What is it about women / mothers speaking that a certain type of man finds so irresistible?
Why are some men so emotionally incontinent that they have to intervene, lecture, rant, seethe and whine when women say no to undressing in front of men?

it's a mystery.

I live in the U.K.

mumsnet is primarily a U.K. forum but whatever.

if you were in the uk would you encourage men to enter a women’s single sex space? And would you ignore my no?

Mumsnet is a global forum. 😂

No you don't. Sexual assault can be grabbing breasts. Rape and sexual assault are two different things.

Good for you. Stay in Australia then.

Male bodies people should follow the law of their jurisdiction obviously. But laws aren't necessarily moral or ethical.

You don’t.

in the uk you need a penis to rape though.

You don't say…🤪

Well then why are you coming on to a U.K. forum and telling women who want the law obeyed that they’re wrong?

But it's worth noting that lesbians are also vanishingly unlikely to sexually assault someone by grabbing their breasts.

By keeping male people out of women's spaces we can prevent 100% of rapes and 98% of all sexual assaults that might otherwise occur in those spaces. It's really a no brainer, isn't it?

I agree, it is completely unethical that female people don't have the right to exist under Australian law.

Depends on the 'culture' of the individual ….

whatevs

if you’re ever in the uk stay the fuck out of the ladies bogs