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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women’s privacy and dignity

1000 replies

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 07/09/2025 13:43

I’ve just been to my local leisure centre swimming pool and while I was in the changing rooms a woman walked in from the showers, fully naked. I averted my eyes, and she walked quite close past me in a way which to me (and I fully accept I may well have imagined it) felt a bit pointed. I felt vaguely uncomfortable and embarrassed in the same way I would have if a man had walked in naked.

My impression is that the vast majority of people on this forum believe that it is a fundamental breach of women’s privacy and dignity if people with male biology (whether cisgender men or trans women) share changing facilities with women. Yet they do not consider that it undermines a woman’s privacy or dignity to have to get changed in front of other women, or to see other women naked.

I understand that many women have had experiences with men’s exhibitionist or voyeuristic behaviour which makes them specifically uncomfortable being undressed around men, or being around men who are undressed. But I’ve often seen the argument on here that it equally undermines men’s privacy and dignity to have to share changing facilities with women.

So my question is, do you think privacy and dignity are not infringed by having to get changed in front of people of the same sex? If not, why not?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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JustAnotherFunday · 09/09/2025 22:41

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 22:34

Like logic & rationale?

From the peoples who are 'anti misogyny'….

Ha ha ha ha. No. Not seen any decent logical arguments from you.

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 23:03

JustAnotherFunday · 09/09/2025 22:41

Ha ha ha ha. No. Not seen any decent logical arguments from you.

Of course you didn't…

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24959160/

JustAnotherFunday · 09/09/2025 23:09

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 23:03

Of course you didn't…

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24959160/

What is this a pissing context? I got top marks in Formal Logic at the University of Oxford, not that that's any of your business...

I would love for a trans rights activist to actually present a decent argument for a change.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 09/09/2025 23:13

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 23:03

Of course you didn't…

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24959160/

ahhh

is this a demonstration of the famous 'logic and rationale'? or maybe it's nuance

good for you chicken, well done

ThatBlackCat · 10/09/2025 02:34

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 12:13

I don't respond because my issue isn't with toilet design rather the pros & cons of trans people being unable to use the toilet of their gender given that they are of a substantially increased risk of abuse by men & research of public toilets where laws allow them shows that they aren't a risk to women.

I note you suggest unisex toilets are problematic but with the new UK ruling that kind of puts trans people at an increased risk if they can't even have access to those.

Still posting debunked lies I see. Firstly, toilets are based on sex. Not 'gender'. Secondly there is zero evidence that men wearing dresses are at any increase risk of abuse by men. Transwomen themselves say this. But there are numerous examples and solid research and evidence that show transwomen rape and attack girls and women in the womens. Thankfully, the ruling, which is only clarification, reduces the risk to women and girls and restores their hard won sex-based rights.

ThatBlackCat · 10/09/2025 02:40

That has been DEBUNKED over and over and over and over again, even by the 'institute' themselves. Anyone posting that these days is making a mockery of themselves.

Women’s privacy and dignity
Women’s privacy and dignity
Women’s privacy and dignity
ThatBlackCat · 10/09/2025 02:47

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 12:40

False. There's no evidence trans people offend at the same rate as men. In fact the evidence shows just the opposite.

"Transgender People, Crime and Prisons – Prevalence
While there is a consistent stream of media attention concerning trans people involved in crime, statistics show cisgender people commit crimes more regularly than trans people. The makeup of the England & Wales (E&W) prison population shows this:
The E & W cisgender population is 59.6 million – the cisgender prison population is 87,900 = 0.15% of people in E & W are in prison.
The E & W trans population is 262,000 – the trans prison population is 268 = 0.1% of trans people in E & W are in prison.
From this statistic, we learn that cisgender people commit crimes at a 50% higher rate than trans people.
Evidence from the research conducted by Olga Suhomlinova and Saoirse Caitlin O’Shea using official statistics dating from 2021 revealed that while 0.5% of the population identify as transgender or non-binary, they represented just 0.2% of the prison population.
Transgender People, Crime and Prisons – Trans Women & Trans Men
Another anomaly in the statistics is that while 96% of the cisgender prison population is male and 4% female, the trans prison population is 84% trans women and 16% trans men. The reasons likely include trans men suffering depression, anxiety, discrimination, unemployment issues, and, consequently, poverty. For safety reasons, trans men nearly always elect to be housed in the female estate. Likewise, as long as not convicted of any violent or threatening act against natal females, trans women should be housed according to the safety risk they face."

https://translucent.org.uk/transgender-people-crime-and-prisons/

False. 'Translucent' has an agenda and misrepresents the data.

The evidence PROVES that transwomen sexually offend at least 5 times higher than other males.

Women’s privacy and dignity
Women’s privacy and dignity
Women’s privacy and dignity
Women’s privacy and dignity
Women’s privacy and dignity
ThatBlackCat · 10/09/2025 02:55

So conflates gay people with transgender. So not reliable. My examples are specifically about trans people. No one else. Your links mix gay into it. Also when a 'hate crime' is correctly-sexing a person, what is a 'hate crime' is no longer a tangible thing.

Women’s privacy and dignity
Women’s privacy and dignity
Women’s privacy and dignity
ThatBlackCat · 10/09/2025 03:04

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 13:33

'he'

'It's a 'he' 'cause a 'she' would never disagree…or depend on evidence'

Feminists of the world unite! 🤡

A female immediately understands how women are vulnerable. Despite being told about miscarriages, women fleeing men, washing blood-stained underwear at the sink, changing at the sink etc you STILL refuse to apologise and admit we have a point and accept our vulnerability and right to privacy.

Only a male would not 'get it' at this point.

PS It's a male thing to use the 'clown' emoji. Women don't tend to use it. We use rolled eyes or laughing emoji. All the people I've seen posting the clown emoji on social media have been male. Every single one of them. Never seen a woman use it ever in my life.

ThatBlackCat · 10/09/2025 03:10

PrettyDamnCosmic · 09/09/2025 13:26

There is no such thing as a hate crime committed against women. See below from the Home Office report on hate crimes.

A hate crime is any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice based on:

  • a person’s race or perceived race, or any racial group or ethnic background including countries within the UK and Gypsy and Traveller groups; this includes asylum seekers and migrants
  • a person’s religion or perceived religion, or any religious group including those who have no faith
  • a person’s sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation, or any person’s sexual orientation
  • a person’s disability or perceived disability, or any disability including physical disability, learning disability and mental health or developmental disorders
  • a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender, including people who are transsexual, transgender, cross dressers and those who hold a Gender Recognition Certificate under the Gender Recognition Act 2004
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hate-crime-england-and-wales-year-ending-march-2024/hate-crime-england-and-wales-year-ending-march-2024

A hate crime is any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice

Very interesting! So it is whatever the person wants it to be or wants to believe it is.

In other words, it's bullshit and nonsense because anyone can claim anything is a 'hate crime'.

ThatBlackCat · 10/09/2025 03:13

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 13:35

As has you have been told upthread, conviction details aren't recorded in the UK data for those types of crimes.

How convenient.....

Kurkara · 10/09/2025 04:23

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 10:19

"whoring' around,"

You say that like it's a bad thing…..😂

You don't seem to be with the times where ironically taking ownership of derogatory terms like black people do for the 'n' word or women do for 'bitch'.

Or maybe you do & this is another cheap attempt at discrediting.

Using MRA arguments and links = anything that threatens my worldview

"All while telling women how much they much hate trans people because they don't want to share single sex spaces with male people."

When on the ropes? Strawman…

"But again, posted with the question of why should women have single sex spaces as if this scenario will surely convince others that we may as well get rid of any female single sex spaces and just have uni sex spaces from now."

The sound of someone who doesn't understand that the consequences of women's choices aren't always a zero sum gain…or doesn't care.

Edited

"Oh baby, I want you to get what you want. I just don't see why I can't get what I want, too."
Male person just wants to live his trueauthenticalityness.
Female person refuses to undress infront of said male person in a communal changing room.
Is this a zero sum game?
It will only take you 53 Sandie Peggie threads' of reading to find out.

Kurkara · 10/09/2025 05:14

I don't think I expressed myself very clearly then.
I think @Howseitgoin 's considering "I want you to undress infront of me" and "I don't want to undress infront of you" morally equivalent statements is abhorrent.
AND
Ironically enough, in current news, the reason the consequences of one particular woman's (Sandie Peggies') choice became a zero sum game was because trans woman Beth Upton refused to tolerate Peggie's compromise of only using the communal changing space once Upton had vacated it.

Namelessnelly · 10/09/2025 05:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Howseitgoin · 10/09/2025 06:13

ThatBlackCat · 10/09/2025 02:34

Still posting debunked lies I see. Firstly, toilets are based on sex. Not 'gender'. Secondly there is zero evidence that men wearing dresses are at any increase risk of abuse by men. Transwomen themselves say this. But there are numerous examples and solid research and evidence that show transwomen rape and attack girls and women in the womens. Thankfully, the ruling, which is only clarification, reduces the risk to women and girls and restores their hard won sex-based rights.

This has already been posted previously which proves not only do trans people experience violent hate crimes in the uk but perpetrators have indeed been charged/summoned as a result.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24959160/

  1. Police recorded hate crime
Key results in the year ending March 2023, there were 145,214 hate crimes recorded by the police in England and Wales (excluding Devon and Cornwall police[footnote 2]), a decrease of 5% from the year ending March 2022 (153,536 offences), the first fall since the comparable time series began in the year ending March 2013 prior to the fall seen this year, police recorded hate crime offences rose between the years ending 2013 and 2022; this prolonged period of increasing offences was thought to have been driven by improvements in crime recording by the police and better identification of what constitutes a hate crime there were 101,906 race hate crimes, a fall of 6% from the previous year when there were 108,476 offences, this was driven by a decrease in racially or religiously aggravated public fear, alarm or distress offences as in previous years, the majority of hate crimes were racially motivated, accounting for 7 in 10 of all such offences (70%; 101,906 offences) religious hate crimes decreased by 4%, from 8,602 to 8,241 offences sexual orientation hate crimes fell by 6%, to 24,102 offences, while transgender hate crimes increased by 11%, to 4,732 offences disability hate crimes fell slightly (by 1%) compared with the previous year, at 13,777 offences over half (51%) of the hate crimes recorded by the police were for public order offences, 41% were for violence against the person offences and 5% were recorded as criminal damage and arson offences

Transgender identity hate crimes rose by 11% (from 4,262 to 4,732) over the same period, the highest number since the time series began in the year ending March 2012. Transgender issues have been heavily discussed by politicians, the media and on social media over the last year, which may have led to an increase in these offences, or more awareness in the police in the identification and recording of these crimes.

Figure 2.8: Percentage of selected offences resulting in charge/summons, by hate crime strand, offences recorded in the year ending March 2023, England and Wales, 30 forces

Source: Police recorded crime, Home Office Data Hub

Hate crime, England and Wales, 2022 to 2023 second edition

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2022-to-2023/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2022-to-2023#fn:2

Howseitgoin · 10/09/2025 06:20

Kurkara · 10/09/2025 04:23

"Oh baby, I want you to get what you want. I just don't see why I can't get what I want, too."
Male person just wants to live his trueauthenticalityness.
Female person refuses to undress infront of said male person in a communal changing room.
Is this a zero sum game?
It will only take you 53 Sandie Peggie threads' of reading to find out.

There's this thing called 'cubicles'. Problem solved.

As far as zero sum game goes, private spaces in bathrooms comes at a cost of not only of a culture of increased suspicion & scrutiny of women but harassment of women not considered 'feminine' enough by the transvestigator moral panic police.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/13335/html/

Appendix: people mistaken for trans women
“This Woman Shows ‘Bathroom Safety’ Isn’t Only a Trans Concern: A lesbian mistaken for a man was followed into a hospital restroom and thought to be a danger to other occupants.” 2016.
http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/05/02/woman-shows-bathroom-safety-isnt-only-trans-concern

Women are getting harassed in bathrooms because of anti-transgender hysteria. 2016
https://www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11690234/women-bathrooms-harassment

Savage Love Letter of the Day: Cis Woman Mistaken For Trans. 2017
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/08/21/25364977/savage-love-letter-of-the-day-cis-woman-mistaken-for-trans

Lesbian couple kicked out of women's toilet at cinema because security thought they were MEN. 2015
_https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lesbian-couple-kicked-out-womens-4977298.amp?_twitter_impression=true

Lesbian teen asked to prove gender, ejected from McDonald’s for using women’s toilet. 2016
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/04/10/lesbian-teen-asked-to-prove-gender-ejected-from-mcdonalds-for-using-womens-toilet/

Lesbian kicked out of bowling alley because she used the women’s restroom. 2018
https://www.gaystarnews.com/article/lesbian-kicked-out-of-bowling-alley-because-she-used-the-womens-restroom/

Self-Appointed Bathroom Cop Catches Dallas Woman Using Women's Restroom. 2016
https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/self-appointed-bathroom-cop-catches-dallas-woman-using-womens-restroom-8259104

Cancer survivor hits out at ‘bathroom bill’ after she is mistaken for trans woman following mastectomy. 2016
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/06/06/cancer-survivor-hits-out-at-bathroom-bill-after-she-is-mistaken-for-trans-woman/

SNP MP Mhairi Black: 'I've been challenged going into female toilets. I'm not leaving transgender people behind’ 2019
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17873346.snp-mp-mhairi-black-ive-challenged-going-female-toilets-not-leaving-transgender-people-behind/

This lawmaker thought he was in the presence of a transgender woman. So he ‘threatened to wave his penis’ at her. 2016
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/03/this-lawmaker-thought-he-was-in-the-presence-of-a-transgender-woman-so-he-threatened-to-wave-his-penis-at-her/

Woman Sues Restaurant That Ejected Her From Bathroom for Looking 'Like a Man' 2015
https://www.advocate.com/business/2015/06/17/detroit-woman-kicked-out-restaurant-bathroom-looking-man-sues

Woman mistaken for transgender harassed in Walmart bathroom. 2016
https://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Woman-mistaken-for-transgender-harassed-in-7471666.php#photo-10075104

“It gets me chucked out of toilets,” she says, referring to the furore surrounding trans women’s use of women’s lavatories that has resulted in many butch lesbians being hounded out of public bathrooms, in the UK and the US. “It happens all the time.” Especially, she says, when she’s with her partner, Caroline.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/she-led-britains-largest-lgbt-charity-this-is-why-she-chose

Lesbian couple kicked out of women's toilet because guard thought they were MEN

Tracey Seaton and her partner Keira Williams want Cineworld to train their staff after the "embarrassing" altercation in a London branch

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lesbian-couple-kicked-out-womens-4977298.amp?__twitter_impression=true

Namelessnelly · 10/09/2025 06:58

Howseitgoin · 10/09/2025 06:13

This has already been posted previously which proves not only do trans people experience violent hate crimes in the uk but perpetrators have indeed been charged/summoned as a result.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24959160/

  1. Police recorded hate crime
Key results in the year ending March 2023, there were 145,214 hate crimes recorded by the police in England and Wales (excluding Devon and Cornwall police[footnote 2]), a decrease of 5% from the year ending March 2022 (153,536 offences), the first fall since the comparable time series began in the year ending March 2013 prior to the fall seen this year, police recorded hate crime offences rose between the years ending 2013 and 2022; this prolonged period of increasing offences was thought to have been driven by improvements in crime recording by the police and better identification of what constitutes a hate crime there were 101,906 race hate crimes, a fall of 6% from the previous year when there were 108,476 offences, this was driven by a decrease in racially or religiously aggravated public fear, alarm or distress offences as in previous years, the majority of hate crimes were racially motivated, accounting for 7 in 10 of all such offences (70%; 101,906 offences) religious hate crimes decreased by 4%, from 8,602 to 8,241 offences sexual orientation hate crimes fell by 6%, to 24,102 offences, while transgender hate crimes increased by 11%, to 4,732 offences disability hate crimes fell slightly (by 1%) compared with the previous year, at 13,777 offences over half (51%) of the hate crimes recorded by the police were for public order offences, 41% were for violence against the person offences and 5% were recorded as criminal damage and arson offences

Transgender identity hate crimes rose by 11% (from 4,262 to 4,732) over the same period, the highest number since the time series began in the year ending March 2012. Transgender issues have been heavily discussed by politicians, the media and on social media over the last year, which may have led to an increase in these offences, or more awareness in the police in the identification and recording of these crimes.

Figure 2.8: Percentage of selected offences resulting in charge/summons, by hate crime strand, offences recorded in the year ending March 2023, England and Wales, 30 forces

Source: Police recorded crime, Home Office Data Hub

maaaate. No. Just no. This has been debunked soooooo many times it’s boring now. When “misgendering” is considered a hate crime you’re not doing yourself any favours. Men can never be women and are not allowed in female sex spaces. Can you not come up with different “points” or is this all you have?

Howseitgoin · 10/09/2025 07:08

Namelessnelly · 10/09/2025 06:58

maaaate. No. Just no. This has been debunked soooooo many times it’s boring now. When “misgendering” is considered a hate crime you’re not doing yourself any favours. Men can never be women and are not allowed in female sex spaces. Can you not come up with different “points” or is this all you have?

Maaate what part of "violent" crimes don't you get?

See graph 2.8

Namelessnelly · 10/09/2025 07:16

Howseitgoin · 10/09/2025 07:08

Maaate what part of "violent" crimes don't you get?

See graph 2.8

Yeah but the TRA claim words are”literal violence”. So I’m not taking their claims of violence seriously.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/09/2025 07:18

Howseitgoin · 10/09/2025 07:08

Maaate what part of "violent" crimes don't you get?

See graph 2.8

Maaaate during the same time period at least three police forces erroneously tweeted to the general public that misgendering is a hate crime.

So, obviously, any statistics relating to hate crimes against transgender people recorded by police forces which believe that belong in the bin.

Howseitgoin · 10/09/2025 07:18

Namelessnelly · 10/09/2025 07:16

Yeah but the TRA claim words are”literal violence”. So I’m not taking their claims of violence seriously.

But but but but but….

So it's the police that are recording non violent crime as violent ?

😂

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 10/09/2025 07:19

JustAnotherFunday · 09/09/2025 22:41

Ha ha ha ha. No. Not seen any decent logical arguments from you.

There were some Wiki links though!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/09/2025 07:19

Howseitgoin · 10/09/2025 07:18

But but but but but….

So it's the police that are recording non violent crime as violent ?

😂

Well, they are apparently recording non crimes as crimes, so...

Howseitgoin · 10/09/2025 07:22

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/09/2025 07:18

Maaaate during the same time period at least three police forces erroneously tweeted to the general public that misgendering is a hate crime.

So, obviously, any statistics relating to hate crimes against transgender people recorded by police forces which believe that belong in the bin.

Edited

Oh I know, I know, I know…….🤪

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/09/2025 07:24

Howseitgoin · 10/09/2025 07:22

Oh I know, I know, I know…….🤪

You might think it is hilarious that some of those responsible for law and order who have the power to arrest and detain us think and are willing to say in public that calling a man a man is a hate crime.

I do not agree.

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