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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #52

1000 replies

nauticant · 02/09/2025 11:26

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025

OP posts:
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36
Boiledbeetle · 03/09/2025 10:27

Totallygripped · 02/09/2025 22:52

Apologies for misnaming. Would love to see pic of Beetle and Mrs mother of Rupert having a cuppa at Rupert's home. And was there a wizard or scientist?

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She makes a cracking cup of tea, and Rupert has been so well brought up.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #52
guinnessguzzler · 03/09/2025 10:29

prh47bridge · 03/09/2025 10:20

Many threads ago I said that you should be very worried if it seems during the hearing that the judge is on your side. S/he might be, but there is a good chance that they are simply trying to make sure you have no possible grounds for appeal when the decision goes against you.

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Ha! This is how I tend to operate in daily life, generally when I'm being extra nice to someone it's because I despise them and am trying to hide it 😂#couldvebeenajudge

InvisibleDragon · 03/09/2025 10:29

I was interested that yesterday TT was reporting discussion between the judge and advocates about when the judgement will be handed down - eg embargoed copy 5 days before public one, possibly in November etc.

To me, that suggests it's highly unlikely that neither party is really keen to string it out any longer by recalling witnesses etc. So either the additional defence line isn't going to be permitted at the 11th hour, or everyone knows it's going to make no difference to the outcome?

On SP being advised by her manager to speak to DU herself, I don't think that happened. I think SP told her manager something like "I'll have to speak to DU myself then" and the manager didn't advise not/to do this, or suggest anything different?

BellissimoGecko · 03/09/2025 10:29

Merrymouse · 03/09/2025 10:17

I worry about the judge’s bias too. Why agree to JR’s request for to ‘deadname’ Upton??

Time will tell, but from Michael Foran’s podcast, I think the judge is trying to avoid grounds for appeal. (Although he probably thinks it’s inevitable). Had he decided otherwise JR is very likely to have appealed, but as it is the most he will get from SP’s team is irritation.

I think that he is trying to do things by the book, and he is also very unlikely to take it upon himself to contradict the SC judgement.

I think his goal is to hand the case onto the next court with as minimal grounds for criticism of his court as possible.

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Thank you, @Merrymouse, that’s really helpful.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/09/2025 10:35

prh47bridge · 03/09/2025 09:00

Be careful not to read too much into the investigation clearing SP. That isn't an automatic get out of jail free card for her (not that I think she needs one, but that isn't the point of this post). If Fife can convince the tribunal that there were reasonable grounds to investigate SP's behaviour, that may justify some or all of their actions.

If, say, an allegation is made that an employee has used racist language directed at another employee, the disciplinary process that follows may well be reasonable even if the process ends with a finding that no racist language was used. if the process is reasonable, the fact the employee was found to be innocent would not help them with a claim against their employer.

My view is that Fife's investigation was not reasonable. There appears to be no justification for the initial suspension. The claimed justification that it was impossible to ensure that SP and Upton were not rostered together and that there were patient safety concerns doesn't fly given the evidence. The repeated, largely unexplained, delays in the process were also unreasonable in my view, and the rush to condemn SP with senior staff interfering in ways that compromised the investigation was also unreasonable.

I don't think the Bananarama defence helps them even if they are allowed to argue it. At best, it gives them a justification for starting a disciplinary process against SP. It does not give any justification for allowing Upton into the female changing room, nor does it justify the way the disciplinary process was conducted. And personally, I don't think the Bananarama defence flies. It seems pretty clear from the evidence that SP was being punished for saying that Upton is a man, not for the way she made that statement.

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Indeed. Even if the internal investigation had found that SP was abandoning patients left right and centre and had yelled the chromosomes question at the top of her voice in the middle of the ED waiting room, Fife would still be at fault if they failed to follow the proper process of investigation.

Like JR's claim of the 1996 legislation shaping something published in 1992, it doesn't fly to claim that time runs backwards and the findings justify the process of reaching the findings.

MyAmpleSheep · 03/09/2025 10:35

prh47bridge · 03/09/2025 10:16

This is a civil case where the rules are rather different to murder cases!

In a work environment, saying to an employee that there is no route available for you to raise your concerns and that we will discipline you if you try is not acceptable. That is why employers are required to have a grievance process that takes employee concerns seriously. When dealing with a protected belief, an employer may be able to say that certain manifestations of that belief are unacceptable, but banning all manifestations of that belief is unlikely to be reasonable.

We are dealing here with a whistleblowing issue. Upton's presence in the changing room was unlawful. Fife's actions in allowing him to be there were unlawful. In my view, SP's actions qualify for protection as whistleblowing. In order to say she should have used a different approach, Fife need to show that a different approach was available that did not require SP to take legal action.

Edited to add - having seen your later post, can I be clear that I'm not saying anything goes. But, unless Fife can show that there was a route SP should have taken to raise her concerns where she would not have been disciplined for heresy and would have been taken seriously, there is a lot more scope for her actions to be classed as reasonable than there would be if such a process existed.

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I think we agree that the range of options NHSF made available to SP is an important light in which the reasonableness of her actions need to be seen.

MyAmpleSheep · 03/09/2025 10:40

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/09/2025 10:35

Indeed. Even if the internal investigation had found that SP was abandoning patients left right and centre and had yelled the chromosomes question at the top of her voice in the middle of the ED waiting room, Fife would still be at fault if they failed to follow the proper process of investigation.

Like JR's claim of the 1996 legislation shaping something published in 1992, it doesn't fly to claim that time runs backwards and the findings justify the process of reaching the findings.

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It would vastly affect the outcome of the complaint though. If a defective investigation had correctly revealed that a nurse was abandoning patients left right and centre he would still be dismissed and referred to his regulator. He could not argue that because his incompetence had been uncovered by a flawed process it should be ignored.

Vogt · 03/09/2025 10:40

BellissimoGecko · 03/09/2025 10:01

I agree. JR has behaved very badly here. Is there any way to complain about the behaviour of a KC?

I worry about the judge’s bias too. Why agree to JR’s request for to ‘deadname’ Upton??

and surely JR can’t offer a new defence at this stage?!

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I think the judge is trying to ensure that there isn't an appeal on the basis of deadnaming and other things etc so is allowing that to be redacted.

Boiledbeetle · 03/09/2025 10:43

Easytoconfuse · 03/09/2025 05:48

You've got to admire Sandie Peggie (aka Satan's Nurse.) If Ms Russell is to be believed, she timed her period so she could attack poor fragile tiny 6 foot plus Beth and made sure there were no witnesses. So obviously, no equal rights for her.

Meanwhile, Dr Upton has some very dodgy voice notes of what happened that no one else has ever seen. He is, of course, a totally reliable witness and everyone at the hospital said how kind he was. Those of us who saw and heard and read his testimony at the tribunal were all subjected to a spell cast by Sandie Peggie, probably involving Tunnocks tea cakes, caramel wafers and snowballs, which even made the amazing Naomi decide that he was, shall we say, not entirely kind. The question is, did the spell make Dr Upton reveal his true nature? Do we all need to eat more Tunnocks tea cakes or caramel wafers to make it keep working so we can see that a man in a dress is still a man and should not be in the women's toilets, changing areas or rape centres.

Or alternatively, all my nonsense makes as much sense as the nonsense Ms Russell talked yesterday.

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Your version actually makes more sense!

Best we keep eating the Tunnocks!

Vogt · 03/09/2025 10:43

Sorry - didn't realise someone had posted a reply. Glad to hear Foran thinks the same although I won't be teaching law in Oxford any time soon. Hats off to him.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 03/09/2025 10:44

InvisibleDragon · 03/09/2025 10:29

I was interested that yesterday TT was reporting discussion between the judge and advocates about when the judgement will be handed down - eg embargoed copy 5 days before public one, possibly in November etc.

To me, that suggests it's highly unlikely that neither party is really keen to string it out any longer by recalling witnesses etc. So either the additional defence line isn't going to be permitted at the 11th hour, or everyone knows it's going to make no difference to the outcome?

On SP being advised by her manager to speak to DU herself, I don't think that happened. I think SP told her manager something like "I'll have to speak to DU myself then" and the manager didn't advise not/to do this, or suggest anything different?

On SP being advised by her manager to speak to DU herself, I don't think that happened.

OK, have seen so many bits of witness statements during the tribunal that I may be mistaken. When time allows I'll have a trawl and see if I can find the relevant bit

Vogt · 03/09/2025 10:44

I ate three Tunnocks caramel wafers yesterday from the stress of the day ( Peggie and Glinner on top of workday)

IDareSay · 03/09/2025 10:46

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 03/09/2025 10:44

On SP being advised by her manager to speak to DU herself, I don't think that happened.

OK, have seen so many bits of witness statements during the tribunal that I may be mistaken. When time allows I'll have a trawl and see if I can find the relevant bit

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I recall something along those lines too. Would be great if you can find the reference @SlackJawedDisbeliefXY

BellissimoGecko · 03/09/2025 10:48

Vogt · 03/09/2025 10:40

I think the judge is trying to ensure that there isn't an appeal on the basis of deadnaming and other things etc so is allowing that to be redacted.

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It’s crazy, really, since if Upton wasn’t male, there would be no trial, but there we are.

I hope you’re right about the judge.

Totallygripped · 03/09/2025 10:53

Boiledbeetle · 03/09/2025 10:27

She makes a cracking cup of tea, and Rupert has been so well brought up.

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Perfect!

Ramblingnamechanger · 03/09/2025 10:54

Surprising to hear it summarized on Woman’s Hour today. After hearing yesterday Nuala insisting that prostituted women should be referred to as sex workers I wasn’t hopeful, but on the whole the presentation was fairly factual although the fact of Upton being a man was not made explicit. Much was made of the racism accusations, not as bad as it could have been and I am amazed it was discussed at all. However Nuala was not inviting us to express our views. As it is still going I will try!

IDareSay · 03/09/2025 10:57

https://x.com/justinbowie1997/status/1963174706606985396

"NEW: NHS Fife nurse Sandie Peggie has launched a fresh legal challenge against the health board and senior bosses. Story to follow."

Live Politics Reporter for
@DC_Thomson
with
@thecourieruk
and
@pressjournal
.

https://x.com/justinbowie1997/status/1963174706606985396

IDareSay · 03/09/2025 10:58

Ramblingnamechanger · 03/09/2025 10:54

Surprising to hear it summarized on Woman’s Hour today. After hearing yesterday Nuala insisting that prostituted women should be referred to as sex workers I wasn’t hopeful, but on the whole the presentation was fairly factual although the fact of Upton being a man was not made explicit. Much was made of the racism accusations, not as bad as it could have been and I am amazed it was discussed at all. However Nuala was not inviting us to express our views. As it is still going I will try!

That's because the reporter Lorna Gordon is a terf 😉

IDareSay · 03/09/2025 11:02

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2025.09.03-095636/www.heraldscotland.com/news/25437310.sandie-peggie-latest-nurse-brings-new-claim-nhs-fife" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.ph/2025.09.03-095636/www.heraldscotland.com/news/25437310.sandie-peggie-latest-nurse-brings-new-claim-nhs-fife/

Above article archive.

Damn, won't post properly

Bannedontherun · 03/09/2025 11:04

Not working

IDareSay · 03/09/2025 11:05

Archive
<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2025.09.03-095636/www.heraldscotland.com/news/25437310.sandie-peggie-latest-nurse-brings-new-claim-nhs-fife/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Sandie Peggie latest:nurse brings new claim against NHS Fife

I give up!

123ZYX · 03/09/2025 11:06

From the part I could see, she is bringing legal action under the Equalities Act against Dr Kate Searle, Dr Maggie Currer and Esther Davidson and Fife Health Board with possible other Fife employees to also be added.

IDareSay · 03/09/2025 11:06

Anyway I'm sure you all now know to put the original article url into one of the archive sites.

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