NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #52

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025

Think the J is trying to work out if DU has met the 2-year requirement under the GRA.

More misogynistic crap from JR- women shouldn't have to get our kit off in front of our male work colleagues, even if we don't think they are rapists (which we wouldn't know anyway, as most men get off). Bodily privacy, dignity, safety matter. (Most women don't get undressd with male family members either, apart from partners, even when they are lovely!).

From Herald
3:19pm
Jane Russell said this was not a case of “countless surprise between two people who didn’t know each other” — as might happen in a rape crisis centre — but of colleagues who already knew each other before the conflict arose. That context, she suggested, mattered to the proportionality analysis.
She also stressed that NHS Fife had not acted in isolation: “My understanding is that… within the NHS, Dr Upton was allowed to use female changing, and given the evidence of most of the health boards in Scotland and indeed in England as well, [they were] operating on the same basis.”

From TT

J Is there an Eq assessment

JR Will come back to you.

J VV. Nature of evidence

JR Like MF which I don't say was skilled evidence;. All MF had done was desktop research. Not a research expert. Has an agriculture degree.

J Same could apply to VV

JR Of Course. Only called VV cos MF called. Both in different campaign groups, so only fair to give both sides.

J Looks like VV changed the standard declaration?

JR Not aware. Will look into it.

J Normally say these are facts within my knowledge.

JR WIll check

J Pool for PCP 1?

JR Agree with analysis with NC,

Surely it doesn't make a difference re the changing room post FWS.

from herald 3:22pm
Ms Russell says she would not have asked for evidence from Vic Valentine, from Scottish Trans, if Sandie Peggie's team had not called Maya Forstater.

J We didn't hear evidence that R2 met GRC requirements but you said R2 was in 2nd year or living in req gender. When started?
JR Jan 2022?
J was completed in Aug 22?
JR Will check and come back to you.

This is an argument she made today!

I am so glad I'm not JR right now, this is pitiful.

Which is the fallacy most people assume about trans identified men - that they have had the surgery.

God JR just answer the fucking questions without forshattting all over your response.

thing is she cant change her pronunciation of Maya's name now as it would show up what she's been up to. She had to change how she referred to SP as 'Miss Peggie' because Sandie is married and it was pointed out to her.

I wonder whethe JR is needing to say "I'll need to come back to you on that one" so often is because she's living in a matrix of pseudo-facts where a "fact" will mean one thing in one context and a different thing in another context.

SC said makes no difference if a man has a GRC- as no surgery required (most don't have any, and references to 'surgery' rarely mean penis removal anyway), a GRC is a secret, and they remain men anyway.

I would not of course, actually do anything to compromise out access to open justice BUT the temptation to type WHO IS MISS FORSHATTER? in the chat bar has been considerable and I closed my laptop to cool down a little earlier 😂

Luckily I don''t work for Fife so am unlikely to be punished for thought crime.

There was one where I'm sure she started saying it right and corrected herself to the wrong version.

From TT

potentially 200 people but some changed separately. Can't help you with how much short of 200 number.

J What c PCP 2 pool

JR Permitting staff to use cr aligned with GI. Could potentially be everyone. But if only re T staff would be 5 people.

J Who's potentially affected

JR Could be everyone in hospital.

J C says propositions were conceded by IB in her evidence

JR Will need to come back to you. Don't think those are within judicial knowledge or that we have evidence in statistics. It tells us nothing c TW and therefore nothing c disadvantages

JR: She chose to confront Dr Upton.

Well NHS Fife left her no sodding choice did they!

MN is stripping cr/lf, but a workround is to copy into windows app Notepad, then paste.

Thanks for doing it!

(I asked an AI:

1. Use a Plain Text Editor First

Before pasting into Mumsnet: • Paste your content into Notepad (Windows) or TextEdit in plain text mode (Mac) • This strips hidden formatting and preserves raw CR/LF characters • Then copy from Notepad and paste into Mumsnet This method ensures you're pasting clean, unformatted text, which Mumsnet is less likely to sanitize aggressively. sanitize aggressively. ####

Plus global edit in notepad to filter the @usernames ?

random text example - TT -> notepad -> MN:

workplace re these sensitive areas.
J We have to play with what we've got.
JR. Yes. That's what IB looked at.
J Q is whether IB was right to. Have heard evidence that IB said R2 had right to use f cr? About balancing rights?
JR Problem is that we 'should' is in first sentence.

edit to use the suggested method on the AI recipe

This. The number of times people have said to me, ah, but if they've made the commitment to have the surgery... people just don't get (and of course the media is largely to blame) that only a very small proportion have had, or even contemplated, surgery.

ETA: grammar.

Judge is done I think

Yesterday Michael Foran explained that JR is trying to rely on part of the Goodwin case (think this is the right one) which mentioned briefly the treatment of trans people during transition. I'm guessing that they might conclude that you might come to a different balancing exercise if someone has self id'd for a month versus two plus years.

From TT

Victimisation.

(J??) C intimidated by presence of who she saw as male in f space. Do you agree is what C said.

JR Agree C said to Du was intimidated and that she said you're a man. Both recorded contemporaneously in phone notes.

J and She shouldn't be there. Why are those not enough to convey claim of harassment.

JR Cos she didn't object to DU re that - not scared - chose to confront DU in cr at midnight alone

J If we find she was genuine in her claim

JR Not specific, but you could find within other sub sections.

Well she was chastised for leaving too, so there really was no acceptable answer for Upton bar blind fangirling.

Place marking as little B needs his afternoon tea

NC just discussing something with judge

Judge thanks them all

And we are finished.

For good?

Who knows!