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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #51

1000 replies

nauticant · 01/09/2025 13:38

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 50: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5387893-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-50 7 August 2025 to 1 September 2025

OP posts:
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36
WarrenTofficier · 01/09/2025 20:15

hihelenhi · 01/09/2025 19:57

There was also the "Miss Peggie/Piggy" thing back in the original sessions, making it obvious that's how Upton/Fife's team referred to SP, and yes, there were playground sniggers involved. Not "Nurse Peggie" (in the same way as "Dr Upton") or ("Sandie" in the same way as "Beth"). And SP is married in any case.

So yeah, it appears she is absolutely doing it deliberately. Deeply unprofessional & childish.

As per usual the demand for respect and preferred names only flows in one direction.

NotNatacha · 01/09/2025 20:20

@NebulousSupportPostcard wrote
Mumsnet got back to me and said it seemed that both of us had PMs blocked! I've no idea how that happened (and for so many of us, but I have been into my settings and toggled from yes to know on "Block private messages". I still can't PM you so presumably we both have to be unblocked

I don't know either, but thank you and now it's no to "Block Private Messages."

One of my subs was mentally assigned to you, so do try to send me your email now.

NotNatacha · 01/09/2025 20:56

Anyone who does have a MF Substack subscription - the recording of today's Live video is available now here.

DrBlackbird · 01/09/2025 20:59

hihelenhi · 01/09/2025 19:57

There was also the "Miss Peggie/Piggy" thing back in the original sessions, making it obvious that's how Upton/Fife's team referred to SP, and yes, there were playground sniggers involved. Not "Nurse Peggie" (in the same way as "Dr Upton") or ("Sandie" in the same way as "Beth"). And SP is married in any case.

So yeah, it appears she is absolutely doing it deliberately. Deeply unprofessional & childish.

She was doing it deliberately IMO in order to antagonise both NC and SP so when they took offence she could then say ‘see, pronouns and correct use of names do matter’. Agree, even if she clumsily trying to make a point, it was extremely childish behaviour.

CriticalCondition · 01/09/2025 21:05

I wonder if JR will back off having a go at SP tomorrow. She must know she's on a hiding to nothing and now it's very likely to be a question not of 'if' but 'how much'. And any further attack she makes on Sandie will go to damages.

Easytoconfuse · 01/09/2025 21:07

CohensDiamondTeeth · 01/09/2025 20:10

Planet Vulcan probably doesn't have any time for this sort of illogical nonsense, I want to go there too 😂Live long and prosper

Again IMO he's a man with a fetish.

He's not just wanting to be affirmed without question.

He seemed to me to be actively searching for women to keep notes on, if they even looked at him sideways and didn't immediately fawn all over him, including that patient suffering with dementia correctly sexing him.

I can't imagine Vulcans allowing it. It's been hard enough explaining it to my pair of young adults because it shows how stupid it is. If one person's rights are more important than anothers then it isn't equality, is it? And there has to be something between 'be kind' and 'don't be a doormat.'

Still, at least it made me revisit Violet Elizabeth Bott in Just William. I can't imagine why. Can you?

InvisibleDragon · 01/09/2025 21:10

Not as adept a user of ChatGPT as many here, but I thought Pete deserved his own poster.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #51
Keeptoiletssafe · 01/09/2025 21:16

‘Ms Russell says that in discrimination, the discriminator takes away the ability of somebody to make those choices by treating somebody less well because of their protected characteristic.
"This is why all of these pieces of legislation aimed at protecting vulnerable groups were enacted.
"The result of this is that somebody's life is shaped not by the choices that they make, which are informed by their underlying values of dignity and autonomy, but by the prejudice of someone else.
"That is what is happening here. Dr Upton's life is being shaped not by the choices that she makes, but by the prejudices of somebody else."’

Lives? What’s happening here is that of the actual lives of the most vulnerable people are being put at more risk by gender ideology, by design.

Newer ’inclusive’ toilets have already cost lives. Just having ‘inclusive’ toilet designs is discrimination against those who are medically vulnerable, women and children. Having more inclusive designs also put them at risk.

I am trying to work out where they are going with the toilet argument. Robin Moira White who wrote on the translucent website, wants to be in the women’s. This is the typical preference for a man who doesn’t want to use the men’s. Robin calls unisex ones ‘ghettos’ but conversely says they can be useful for those in ‘early stages’ - both are apparently needed. This makes all toilets mixed sex.

In contrast, most women who don’t want to use the women’s typically don’t want to use the men’s either. They (and their parents) often protest for ‘gender neutral’. Then girls/women get nervous about using them. So they want mixed sex and sometimes women’s. It is more unusual for them to prefer men’s.

It terms of regulations and British Standards etc they don’t even make sense if the terms men and women aren’t used correctly.

Ever wondered why the cubicle is so tiny? Answers are because historically the cubicles were based on men’s - it was made as small as possible to prevent more than one person being in it (for sex) and was based round the dimensions a man would need to wee. No thought was given to a sanitary bin placement (even now) so it brushes against your leg. They were still far more men’s public toilets than women’s up until a few decades ago when they all started getting shut in large numbers anyway.

The gaps we have above and below doors and partitions are there for health and safety. Safety - to make sure anyone collapsing or needing help will be seen. It also prevents ‘wilful misbehaviour’ happening in the first place (sex, drug use, sleeping rough, vandalism). Criminals don’t like witnesses. Also for health as floors can be soaked and mopped thoroughly without build up. Ventilation is also much better with door gaps and pathogen load is reduced. All scientifically proven.

You do not get door gaps in mixed sex toilets or single sex toilets where it is mixed sex in front of the cubicle doors. Privacy overides health and safety concerns when it’s mixed sex or ambiguous.

In document T the only toilets that can have door gaps are single sex toilets. So why is it that increasingly we don’t have toilet door gaps in ‘single sex’ toilet blocks now? It’s because of voyeurism (male behaviour) and because there’s no challenge for men coming into female toilets. This is why this case is important. It provides the ability for women to confidently say no, even if their employer is wavering.

This recent trend for single sex toilet cubicles in blocks being private is a gift for those who want to engage in ‘wilful misbehaviour’ including men setting up cameras and men leading or pushing children/women into cubicles.

Who is most at risk in a toilet? All of us if we are having a medical emergency, people having a mental health crisis, drug users, people with invisible disabilities (inc epilepsy, diabetes), women and children. The group least at risk are healthy men.

In these private toilets there have been rapes, deaths and cameras placed inside. This involves toilets in places where you would expect children to be safe and places where defibrillators could have been used in time if you knew someone had collapsed.

What is worst is that private designs are often given the name ‘inclusive’. They are not and their origins are not from a health and safety perspective. It’s from the male gaze and trans ideology.

These are two articles from two influential American designers of gender-neutral toilets, whose work is ‘evidence’ for ‘inclusive’ design for many schools, public buildings and even a government-funded U.K. public toilet consultation for people with long term health conditions:

Susan Stryker: https://aaa.org.hk/en/like-a-fever/like-a-fever/on-stalling-and-turning-a-wayward-genealogy-for-a-binary-abolitionist-public-toilet-project/type/essays

Joel Sanders: https://www.architectural-review.com/essays/profiles-and-interviews/interview-with-joel-sanders

These ‘inclusive’ designs have NOT been analysed in-situ (Sanders admitted this in Spring 2024). Their two opinions why safety is ‘improved’ are that more people (‘good’ people?) will be around the private toilets to notice and that an adult and a child of different sex can go in together. I can give lots of examples of where these designs have had tragic outcomes.

One point that keeps coming up is that mixed sex toilet doors are able to be locked and secured. This isn’t as you may expect ‘locked and secured’ to mean, for all new and refurbished toilet cubicles and rooms, for life saving reasons. For building regs (health and safety) you need to be able to quickly open the door outwards from the outside. If it’s an inwards opening toilet door that means it needs a mechanism to change that. This is because so many people collapse behind a locked door as it’s where people go when they feel ill and also holding your breath and pushing can lead problems like a cardiac arrest (11% of CA are on the loo). There are millions with heart conditions. So you are never going to be totally ‘secure’ in a toilet cubicle that complies with building regs because you’ll always be accessible for your own safety. However it is much safer if you are able to be seen on the floor of the cubicle asap as it will affect your chances of survival. Mixed sex toilets, the universal design, is supposed to be ‘sound resistant’ which also can compromise safety too and one that has been exploited by men.

The door gaps (over and under doors and partitions) enable you to judge who is around you and listening before you leave the cubicle and give you warning if they attempt to come in. No need for fancy ventilation systems, lots of lights or monitors in toilet cubicles mean it’s easier to judge if there’s a suspicious camera in there.

There is a very strong argument for the best health and safety design in out-of-home toilets, with the amount of crime and illness that happens in them. This means single sex toilets with door gaps.

That’s why the Supreme Court judgement has the ability to save lives and prevent assaults. It means single sex toilets can get their best designs back for health and safety. It means men should use men’s toilets, women should use women’s toilets and when out and about, children should go to the toilet of the sex of their adult carer. I would love to see more single sex accessible toilets within a single sex block so people needing these toilets can get the benefits of the best single sex toilet design too.

If Ms Russell wants to talk more about vulnerable groups and toilets, I am happy to show her my research. I want everyone to be safe. But she’s barking up the wrong tree with her current argument. She is arguing against health and safety.

EsmeWeatherwaxHatpin · 01/09/2025 21:21

like this?

Im just catching up on JR submissions. I’m bored reading it!

TheProfoundlyPeculiarPointOfPete · 01/09/2025 21:26

I got distracted by it not raining this morning and foolishly decided to go out for the day, forgetting this was happening! I think I'm caught up now, thanks to everyone as usual.

PetethePlumbersToolkit · 01/09/2025 21:28

Charabanc · 01/09/2025 18:48

But doesn't she only have two hours totes? And this is giving arguments, not discussing evidence.

I think she is trying to veeeery sloooooowly make the panel and judge think the things that were debunked, were not debunked.

I saw earlier posts about comparing JRs submission speaking speed to having to pad out a 2000 word essay when you could get it done in 500. This feels as though she needs to fill the whole time she has been given, even though she has very little of substance to say.
#sadtimes indeed

ArabellaScott · 01/09/2025 21:28

BettyBooper · 01/09/2025 19:54

Mumsnet proscribed as a terrorist group??! 😂😂😂

Oh thank you so much for that giggle! These people are off the scale!

The TTT - Tunnocks Teacakes Terrorists 🤔

I mean lots of Mumsnet is fucking terrifying, they're not wrong.

Mentioning no boards in partaibular.

NotNatacha · 01/09/2025 21:30

JR having used her 2 hours today with what is arguably time-filling, it will be interesting to see if she limits herself to 1 hour tomorrow.

Perhaps she will be directed to.

PetethePlumbersToolkit · 01/09/2025 21:33

CriticalCondition · 01/09/2025 19:15

Michael Foran made an interesting observation (among many!) about JR's incredibly tedious ramble through the structure of her submission and the facts of the case this afternoon.

He believes NC had blown such a huge hole in JR's legal arguments that she had to fill the time today and push those forward to tomorrow so she's got time overnight to patch something together.

I did wonder after the third or fourth time that JR mentioned a legal case and told the panel she'd be coming back to that...

I would agree. Too much name dropping and signposting to 'see next episode' type stuff.
That panel deserve medals. Is it possible to nominate them for honours or an honorary degree?

ArabellaScott · 01/09/2025 21:34

Why didnt she just wrap up early? Feign a headache or something?

DuesToTheDirt · 01/09/2025 21:40

@Keeptoiletssafe Ever wondered why the cubicle is so tiny? Answers are because historically the cubicles were based on men’s - it was made as small as possible to prevent more than one person being in it (for sex) and was based round the dimensions a man would need to wee. No thought was given to a sanitary bin placement (even now) so it brushes against your leg.

I guess they also didn't consider that you might want to bring two small children in with you, or a pushchair... Never mind giving us extra provision to avoid the perennial (and worldwide!) queues for women's toilets.

A slight digression from the tribunal, but on the toilets front this was in the news today. A Facebook link about this story had numerous comments, 95% of which are scathing that "gender-neutral" toilets in schools had ever been implemented.

WarrenTofficier · 01/09/2025 21:46

Not just any terrorists

Conspicuously law abiding terrorists

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 01/09/2025 21:51

Still reading NC's submission - very precise and thoughtful. It is great to see all the events finally laid out as a timeline

Para 372 / 373 - DU's belief gets introduced to fact by Pete the plumber

Dr Upton insisted that his conduct was different from Pete’s, but he was unable when asked to give any satisfactory account of what it was that made his case different from Pete’s. He confirmed:

• that it was not medical treatment [T315:23-33]
• that it was not that he held a GRC [T316:22-26]
• that it was not that he wore his hair long, and Pete wore his short: T316:27-34]
• that it was not about his slimmer and less muscular build [317:1-5]
• that it was not that unlike Pete he wore make-up and female-coded clothing:
[T317:6-13]
• that it was not a difference in his and Pete’s speaking voices [T317:14-24]

Dr Upton then said this:

So I think, predominantly, somebody’s sincerely expressed identity, and their way of moving through the world, and their way of understanding themselves, and the way in which they wish to be treated, yes, I think that is the core of somebody’s gender identity, and I think it is deeply personal, it varies person to person.

Dr Upton’s answers from this point became a little difficult to follow, but it seemed that he was prepared to maintain that Pete, as hypothesised — with his big muscles, his short hair, his beard and his masculine dress-sense — might nevertheless be entitled to claim to be a woman and entitled to use the women’s changing room. In the end he fell back on a claim that Pete was a woman if that was his “sincerely-expressed identity” [T317:27-34]. In other words, Pete (complete with big muscles, beard and masculine dress sense) is a woman if he says he is.

NotAtMyAge · 01/09/2025 21:51

For a bit of light relief at the end of a long day, this by Mole at the door on X made me laugh out loud far more than once:

https://x.com/moleatthedoor/status/1962587623882477720

Edited for typos. I said it's been a long day.

https://x.com/moleatthedoor/status/1962587623882477720

Waitwhat23 · 01/09/2025 21:52

ArabellaScott · 01/09/2025 21:28

I mean lots of Mumsnet is fucking terrifying, they're not wrong.

Mentioning no boards in partaibular.

I personally lurk on S&B because I'm too scared that any of my posts would eviscerated because of my style taste/choices!

InterrobangsArePureBias · 01/09/2025 21:59

BettyBooper · 01/09/2025 19:54

Mumsnet proscribed as a terrorist group??! 😂😂😂

Oh thank you so much for that giggle! These people are off the scale!

The TTT - Tunnocks Teacakes Terrorists 🤔

Was it the fragrant Sue Pascoe who reported Mumsnet to PREVENT ? 2018?

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3361150-Dr-Nicola-Williams-on-BBC2-at-10-15-Victoria-Live?pg=2&messages=100#prettyPhoto/3/

And Dawn Butler who called the police on us - was it only 2023?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4967923-everyone-scarper-the-rozzers-are-coming?

We’re over due having some more students want to send us to a gulag. (Goldsmiths?)

Everyone scarper, the rozzers are coming | Mumsnet

Dawn Butler's called the polis on us! Quick everyone, namechange and look busy. [[https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1737853431413657806 htt...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4967923-everyone-scarper-the-rozzers-are-coming?

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 01/09/2025 22:04

Para 375 to 377 follows on from my post above

It is submitted that this answer was inevitable from anyone who subscribes to gender identity belief. There is no objective measure or definition of what it is to be a “trans woman,” and therefore no possible objective difference between Dr Upton’s case and Pete’s. Dr Upton may have made attempts to construct a feminine appearance, and to adopt what he imagines to be feminine mannerisms, but none of those details of his appearance or presentation could possibly be determinative of whether he is a “trans woman” or a gender non-conforming man, and he gave no evidence to the contrary. His claim to be a woman is founded purely — and circularly — on his claim to be a woman.

This being so, provided only Pete’s hypothesised invasion of the women’s changing room is “conduct of a sexual nature” there is no basis on which the tribunal can properly find that Dr Upton’s was not. The tribunal is asked to consider and answer the question whether Pete’s invasion of the women’s changing room would be “conduct of a sexual nature.”

Dr Upton, like Pete, is a man. Dr Upton, like Pete, was aware before he entered the women’s changing room that his use of it would be likely to cause at least some of his female colleagues’ discomfort (which he referred to as a potential for “pushback” [T289]). Dr Upton, like Pete, knew that his presence in the women’s changing room was causing a female user of that room distress: because C first left the room when he entered or was there before him, and on the third occasion told him so. Dr Upton, like Pete, stood his ground and refused to leave. Dr Upton, like Pete, made the obviously counter-factual claim that he was a woman.

Pete sounds like a bit of a perv who does not respect women's boundaries

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ...

NebulousSupportPostcard · 01/09/2025 22:10

PetethePlumbersToolkit · 01/09/2025 21:33

I would agree. Too much name dropping and signposting to 'see next episode' type stuff.
That panel deserve medals. Is it possible to nominate them for honours or an honorary degree?

We can do a crowdfunder for them to ride horseback (or zebraback?) to JR's chambers to deliver the tribunal's decision?

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 01/09/2025 22:13

I can't post it all but Para 378 and following powerfully express the harm done by and arrogance of DU's actions.

There are many other options he could have used but he chose to elevate his feelings high above harm to others

I hope that DU takes the time to read these paragraphs and reflect

CohensDiamondTeeth · 01/09/2025 22:15

InterrobangsArePureBias · 01/09/2025 21:59

Was it the fragrant Sue Pascoe who reported Mumsnet to PREVENT ? 2018?

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3361150-Dr-Nicola-Williams-on-BBC2-at-10-15-Victoria-Live?pg=2&messages=100#prettyPhoto/3/

And Dawn Butler who called the police on us - was it only 2023?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4967923-everyone-scarper-the-rozzers-are-coming?

We’re over due having some more students want to send us to a gulag. (Goldsmiths?)

Total rockets! 🙄😂

The TRAs really don't like women talking amongst ourselves do they! Women talking about their rights is basically terrorism 🙄

There was a poster on a thread the other day telling people to avoid reading here in FWR if they wanted to "preserve their faith in humanity" 😂 I countered their lies with facts, and the rest of my reply was that I'm a grumpy, contrary old mare and if someone tells me not to read something, you can guarantee I'll be straight off for a read of the forbidden materials!

I thought that TRA had accidentally hit on a great way to direct traffic over here!😂

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