Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #51

1000 replies

nauticant · 01/09/2025 13:38

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 50: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5387893-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-50 7 August 2025 to 1 September 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
36
KnottyAuty · 01/09/2025 22:17

EweSurname · 01/09/2025 15:31

another (reverse) Spartacus moment?

They can’t say they weren’t warned this would happen… such a dumb thing to ask for… they should be getting JR to point at squirrels not at DU’s sore spot… doh

myplace · 01/09/2025 22:24

Conspicuously Law Abiding and grumpy, contrary old Women.

FWR may need a new name. CLAgcoWR

Heggettypeg · 01/09/2025 22:28

BettyBooper · 01/09/2025 19:54

Mumsnet proscribed as a terrorist group??! 😂😂😂

Oh thank you so much for that giggle! These people are off the scale!

The TTT - Tunnocks Teacakes Terrorists 🤔

"Radicalised by Mumsnet, the defendant is alleged to have sneaked into dozens of offices, theatres and cinemas and planted unwrapped Teacakes on the seats of chairs ... thousands of pounds worth in dry cleaning and laundry bills.... slogans were scribbled on office whiteboards and unexpected slides appeared in staff PowerPoint presentations, saying "Tunnocks for Tea!"...."

Heggettypeg · 01/09/2025 22:34

NotAtMyAge · 01/09/2025 21:51

For a bit of light relief at the end of a long day, this by Mole at the door on X made me laugh out loud far more than once:

https://x.com/moleatthedoor/status/1962587623882477720

Edited for typos. I said it's been a long day.

Edited

Oh goodness!
I loved "Ursula Undress"...

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 01/09/2025 22:35

ArabellaScott · 01/09/2025 21:28

I mean lots of Mumsnet is fucking terrifying, they're not wrong.

Mentioning no boards in partaibular.

Go on Style and Beauty and say you like a dress from Roman

I dare you

Wasitabadger · 01/09/2025 22:39

Easytoconfuse · 01/09/2025 21:07

I can't imagine Vulcans allowing it. It's been hard enough explaining it to my pair of young adults because it shows how stupid it is. If one person's rights are more important than anothers then it isn't equality, is it? And there has to be something between 'be kind' and 'don't be a doormat.'

Still, at least it made me revisit Violet Elizabeth Bott in Just William. I can't imagine why. Can you?

This may help you explain it (my autistic brain views it in this manner) the actual principles of social justice are Distribution, how do we distribute goods/services/rights to all individuals. Recognition how do we recognise the individuals rights to goods/services/rights. We use Pluralism to find a fair method of distribution while recognising individual needs.

Women and men have the right to the same level of distribution of goods/services/rights. Recognising that women and men have different needs due to their biology/social status etc… This requires pluralism to combine the two issues and provide a socially just access to distribution and recognition that each individual has rights.

However, there maybe times that the distribution is stronger than recognition and others where recognition is stronger than distribution to create equality and equity.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/09/2025 22:40

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 01/09/2025 22:35

Go on Style and Beauty and say you like a dress from Roman

I dare you

Double dare for a wedding.
mn was giving me Roman ads yesterday. They looked quite nice.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 01/09/2025 22:41

ErrolTheDragon · 01/09/2025 22:40

Double dare for a wedding.
mn was giving me Roman ads yesterday. They looked quite nice.

<sharp intake of breath>

CautiousLurker01 · 01/09/2025 22:43

ErrolTheDragon · 01/09/2025 22:40

Double dare for a wedding.
mn was giving me Roman ads yesterday. They looked quite nice.

Oddly my MN feed is full of ads for Evans. Bit peeving as I’ve lost 6.5st in the last 2-3 years and they don’t do my size any more!!

murasaki · 01/09/2025 22:43

ErrolTheDragon · 01/09/2025 22:40

Double dare for a wedding.
mn was giving me Roman ads yesterday. They looked quite nice.

I wore a Roman dress to a wedding. The vicar complimented me on it. She and I clearly have dreadful taste!

littlbrowndog · 01/09/2025 22:45

Keeptoiletssafe · 01/09/2025 21:16

‘Ms Russell says that in discrimination, the discriminator takes away the ability of somebody to make those choices by treating somebody less well because of their protected characteristic.
"This is why all of these pieces of legislation aimed at protecting vulnerable groups were enacted.
"The result of this is that somebody's life is shaped not by the choices that they make, which are informed by their underlying values of dignity and autonomy, but by the prejudice of someone else.
"That is what is happening here. Dr Upton's life is being shaped not by the choices that she makes, but by the prejudices of somebody else."’

Lives? What’s happening here is that of the actual lives of the most vulnerable people are being put at more risk by gender ideology, by design.

Newer ’inclusive’ toilets have already cost lives. Just having ‘inclusive’ toilet designs is discrimination against those who are medically vulnerable, women and children. Having more inclusive designs also put them at risk.

I am trying to work out where they are going with the toilet argument. Robin Moira White who wrote on the translucent website, wants to be in the women’s. This is the typical preference for a man who doesn’t want to use the men’s. Robin calls unisex ones ‘ghettos’ but conversely says they can be useful for those in ‘early stages’ - both are apparently needed. This makes all toilets mixed sex.

In contrast, most women who don’t want to use the women’s typically don’t want to use the men’s either. They (and their parents) often protest for ‘gender neutral’. Then girls/women get nervous about using them. So they want mixed sex and sometimes women’s. It is more unusual for them to prefer men’s.

It terms of regulations and British Standards etc they don’t even make sense if the terms men and women aren’t used correctly.

Ever wondered why the cubicle is so tiny? Answers are because historically the cubicles were based on men’s - it was made as small as possible to prevent more than one person being in it (for sex) and was based round the dimensions a man would need to wee. No thought was given to a sanitary bin placement (even now) so it brushes against your leg. They were still far more men’s public toilets than women’s up until a few decades ago when they all started getting shut in large numbers anyway.

The gaps we have above and below doors and partitions are there for health and safety. Safety - to make sure anyone collapsing or needing help will be seen. It also prevents ‘wilful misbehaviour’ happening in the first place (sex, drug use, sleeping rough, vandalism). Criminals don’t like witnesses. Also for health as floors can be soaked and mopped thoroughly without build up. Ventilation is also much better with door gaps and pathogen load is reduced. All scientifically proven.

You do not get door gaps in mixed sex toilets or single sex toilets where it is mixed sex in front of the cubicle doors. Privacy overides health and safety concerns when it’s mixed sex or ambiguous.

In document T the only toilets that can have door gaps are single sex toilets. So why is it that increasingly we don’t have toilet door gaps in ‘single sex’ toilet blocks now? It’s because of voyeurism (male behaviour) and because there’s no challenge for men coming into female toilets. This is why this case is important. It provides the ability for women to confidently say no, even if their employer is wavering.

This recent trend for single sex toilet cubicles in blocks being private is a gift for those who want to engage in ‘wilful misbehaviour’ including men setting up cameras and men leading or pushing children/women into cubicles.

Who is most at risk in a toilet? All of us if we are having a medical emergency, people having a mental health crisis, drug users, people with invisible disabilities (inc epilepsy, diabetes), women and children. The group least at risk are healthy men.

In these private toilets there have been rapes, deaths and cameras placed inside. This involves toilets in places where you would expect children to be safe and places where defibrillators could have been used in time if you knew someone had collapsed.

What is worst is that private designs are often given the name ‘inclusive’. They are not and their origins are not from a health and safety perspective. It’s from the male gaze and trans ideology.

These are two articles from two influential American designers of gender-neutral toilets, whose work is ‘evidence’ for ‘inclusive’ design for many schools, public buildings and even a government-funded U.K. public toilet consultation for people with long term health conditions:

Susan Stryker: https://aaa.org.hk/en/like-a-fever/like-a-fever/on-stalling-and-turning-a-wayward-genealogy-for-a-binary-abolitionist-public-toilet-project/type/essays

Joel Sanders: https://www.architectural-review.com/essays/profiles-and-interviews/interview-with-joel-sanders

These ‘inclusive’ designs have NOT been analysed in-situ (Sanders admitted this in Spring 2024). Their two opinions why safety is ‘improved’ are that more people (‘good’ people?) will be around the private toilets to notice and that an adult and a child of different sex can go in together. I can give lots of examples of where these designs have had tragic outcomes.

One point that keeps coming up is that mixed sex toilet doors are able to be locked and secured. This isn’t as you may expect ‘locked and secured’ to mean, for all new and refurbished toilet cubicles and rooms, for life saving reasons. For building regs (health and safety) you need to be able to quickly open the door outwards from the outside. If it’s an inwards opening toilet door that means it needs a mechanism to change that. This is because so many people collapse behind a locked door as it’s where people go when they feel ill and also holding your breath and pushing can lead problems like a cardiac arrest (11% of CA are on the loo). There are millions with heart conditions. So you are never going to be totally ‘secure’ in a toilet cubicle that complies with building regs because you’ll always be accessible for your own safety. However it is much safer if you are able to be seen on the floor of the cubicle asap as it will affect your chances of survival. Mixed sex toilets, the universal design, is supposed to be ‘sound resistant’ which also can compromise safety too and one that has been exploited by men.

The door gaps (over and under doors and partitions) enable you to judge who is around you and listening before you leave the cubicle and give you warning if they attempt to come in. No need for fancy ventilation systems, lots of lights or monitors in toilet cubicles mean it’s easier to judge if there’s a suspicious camera in there.

There is a very strong argument for the best health and safety design in out-of-home toilets, with the amount of crime and illness that happens in them. This means single sex toilets with door gaps.

That’s why the Supreme Court judgement has the ability to save lives and prevent assaults. It means single sex toilets can get their best designs back for health and safety. It means men should use men’s toilets, women should use women’s toilets and when out and about, children should go to the toilet of the sex of their adult carer. I would love to see more single sex accessible toilets within a single sex block so people needing these toilets can get the benefits of the best single sex toilet design too.

If Ms Russell wants to talk more about vulnerable groups and toilets, I am happy to show her my research. I want everyone to be safe. But she’s barking up the wrong tree with her current argument. She is arguing against health and safety.

You are just amazing how you want to keep everyone safe when in the public toilets. Thank you 🙌🙌

ErrolTheDragon · 01/09/2025 22:47

CautiousLurker01 · 01/09/2025 22:43

Oddly my MN feed is full of ads for Evans. Bit peeving as I’ve lost 6.5st in the last 2-3 years and they don’t do my size any more!!

Today on my phone I got this …
I didn’t dare click to find out why I’d need to brace myself ConfusedShock
(now kinda hoping the image takes a while to be reviewed …)

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #51
murasaki · 01/09/2025 22:50

Haha!

CosyMintFish · 01/09/2025 22:51

I had never heard of Roman dresses (except togas) and I’m so terrified of S&B I don’t even lurk.

so I had a google and

https://www.roman.co.uk/abstract-circle-print-midi-shirt-dress-14599934

𝚃𝚑𝚒𝚜 𝚘𝚗𝚎 𝚒𝚜 𝚚𝚞𝚒𝚝𝚎 𝚗𝚒𝚌𝚎

Green Abstract Circle Print Stretch Midi Shirt Dress | Roman UK

Shop for Green Abstract Circle Print Stretch Midi Shirt Dress at Roman.co.uk. Part of our Shirt Dresses collection.

https://www.roman.co.uk/abstract-circle-print-midi-shirt-dress-14599934

murasaki · 01/09/2025 22:52

People say AIBU is brutal, but it has nothing on Style and Beauty.

Mmmnotsure · 01/09/2025 23:10

BettyBooper · 01/09/2025 19:42

Is the BBC actually reporting fairly??!

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cglnrr7yx2jo

Good lord!

Still using that soft-focus picture of Upton, though (and another blurry one at the foot). All the other photos - of women - are in sharp focus. Must be deliberate.

WearyAuldWumman · 01/09/2025 23:21

ErrolTheDragon · 01/09/2025 22:40

Double dare for a wedding.
mn was giving me Roman ads yesterday. They looked quite nice.

I used to get my work clothes (suits) from the Roman outlet in Livingstone...

CautiousLurker01 · 01/09/2025 23:26

ErrolTheDragon · 01/09/2025 22:47

Today on my phone I got this …
I didn’t dare click to find out why I’d need to brace myself ConfusedShock
(now kinda hoping the image takes a while to be reviewed …)

Edited

😱

WFTCHTJ · 01/09/2025 23:27

Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2025 15:51

God this is the most bored I have ever been in a tribunal

Even WFTCHTJ is more interesting.

How very dare you!

Rightsraptor · 01/09/2025 23:37

I like Roman! Am I not supposed to?

JanesLittleGirl · 01/09/2025 23:47

Rightsraptor · 01/09/2025 23:37

I like Roman! Am I not supposed to?

Post that on S&B and you will find out.

And TRAs think that FWR is a tough gig!!

SmugYetSadTimes · 01/09/2025 23:54

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 01/09/2025 22:04

Para 375 to 377 follows on from my post above

It is submitted that this answer was inevitable from anyone who subscribes to gender identity belief. There is no objective measure or definition of what it is to be a “trans woman,” and therefore no possible objective difference between Dr Upton’s case and Pete’s. Dr Upton may have made attempts to construct a feminine appearance, and to adopt what he imagines to be feminine mannerisms, but none of those details of his appearance or presentation could possibly be determinative of whether he is a “trans woman” or a gender non-conforming man, and he gave no evidence to the contrary. His claim to be a woman is founded purely — and circularly — on his claim to be a woman.

This being so, provided only Pete’s hypothesised invasion of the women’s changing room is “conduct of a sexual nature” there is no basis on which the tribunal can properly find that Dr Upton’s was not. The tribunal is asked to consider and answer the question whether Pete’s invasion of the women’s changing room would be “conduct of a sexual nature.”

Dr Upton, like Pete, is a man. Dr Upton, like Pete, was aware before he entered the women’s changing room that his use of it would be likely to cause at least some of his female colleagues’ discomfort (which he referred to as a potential for “pushback” [T289]). Dr Upton, like Pete, knew that his presence in the women’s changing room was causing a female user of that room distress: because C first left the room when he entered or was there before him, and on the third occasion told him so. Dr Upton, like Pete, stood his ground and refused to leave. Dr Upton, like Pete, made the obviously counter-factual claim that he was a woman.

Pete sounds like a bit of a perv who does not respect women's boundaries

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ...

This “Pushback” and wider related discussion makes me feel extremely uncomfortable.

To me it has a very disturbing undertone of “if you’d just stop fighting me I wouldn’t have to hurt you” which I’m sure a number of us women have heard (or variations along those lines). I absolutely hate it.

It seems very “I will do what I want with my own body” plus “I’ll do what I want with your body - now get undressed or there will be huge repercussions for you as I’ve clearly been desperately waiting for this chance to exercise even more power over a woman.”

Well fuck that. Pushback? Yep. Sandie is fucking fighting back which has taken amazing bravery and strength. This strength along with an amazing legal term feels like the house of cards is finally finally being knocked down in the public gaze.

Pushback? Oh yes. Be careful what you wish for, especially when you under estimate women…

NotNatacha · 01/09/2025 23:54

From the Edinburgh news article linked to by @DuesToTheDirt earlier:
And, a few more primary schools will have to make staff toilets available to pupils where gender-neutral toilets are not available.

I don't know if Scotland's rules are the same, but in England that's forbidden for safeguarding rules. The schools I work in have very clear signage on the toilet doors: "Staff only" or "Pupils only."

Unless they are reducing the number of staff toilets and repurposing them, perhaps. Do many primary schools have more than one set of male and of female staff toilets?

WarrenTofficier · 02/09/2025 00:24

Rightsraptor · 01/09/2025 23:37

I like Roman! Am I not supposed to?

You are 'supposed' to like vastly expensive, plain, neutral coloured, shapeless, oversized garments that make anyone over a size 6 look like an ambulatory fridge as far as I can tell.

Pattern of any type beyond a very subtle pinstripe is totally frumpy!

BettyBooper · 02/09/2025 00:24

ArabellaScott · 01/09/2025 21:28

I mean lots of Mumsnet is fucking terrifying, they're not wrong.

Mentioning no boards in partaibular.

Yes, definitely don't mention that 🤫

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.