Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What would you actually do if you saw a transperson in the wrong toilet/changing room for their sex?

1000 replies

FattyMcFattyArse · 24/08/2025 18:47

I've been pondering this ever since the FWS decision and since I saw an obviously male transperson using the ladies at a service station. I initially froze and wanted to say something, but all my Britishness and female social conditioning made me just mutter under my breath and walk away in disgust.

What would you do?

What have you done?

What is the right thing to do?

They don't belong there, according to the law.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
39
Fiflaboeuf · 25/08/2025 12:58

The thing is without asking to see someone’s junk how the fuck do you know it’s a trans person. I was accosted in a ladies queue with my DD who is female but has short hair recently: we have got to the point where anyone who isn’t conforming to a gender stereotype is confronted and assumptions made.

SirChenjins · 25/08/2025 12:58

Petitchat · 25/08/2025 12:48

Just to give you the heads up, you can't say "waiting by the sinks" on here.

You get laughed at due to the lack of understanding from some posters.

Yes - because obviously the things we know will happen will never, ever happen in their minds.

Keeptoiletssafe · 25/08/2025 12:59

EmmaThompsonsTears · 25/08/2025 11:40

Trans people are less than 1% of the population. Let’s say for argument’s sake that trans women represent half of that group (and trans men the other half). In England and Wales, criminals represent 1.12% of the general population (based on the gov.uk statistic that there were 11.2 arrests for every 1000 people in England and Wales). It’s probably much less than that because that’s just arrests, not convictions.

My maths might not be perfect here, but add that up and we’re talking about 0.0056% of the population, or 5.6 per 100,000.

Based on the population of England and Wales, that’s about 3,000 people overall. And the percentage of criminals who are sex offenders is 3%. So in the whole of England and Wales, we’re talking about around 90 people who might be trans women and also sex offenders (and this is a massive overestimation based on arrests, not number of criminals).

Then you have to look at the fact that the overwhelming majority of sex offences are committed by people who are known to the victim, not strangers. (Only 12% are committed by strangers). So that cuts us down to 10 people, across the whole of England and Wales. Not accounting for repeat arrests / crimes committed by the same person.

Again, maths is far from perfect here and it’s probably a much lower figure than that. Then of those 108 people, we’re worried that they’re all going to choose a toilet as their preferred crime hotspot.

It’s very unlikely.

Of course, you might say that any chance of sexual assault is intolerable, and I’d agree with you there. However, I don’t think that this tiny tiny percentage is where we should all be focusing our attention.

The overwhelming statistical likelihood is that if you’re going to be attacked or abused, it’s going to be by a cis man. They don’t need to put on a dress to harm us, I’m afraid.

The problem is with men, and we are persecuting a small group of trans women because the powers that be have scapegoated them. It’s ridiculous and distracts us from the real problem, which is male violence against women.

Don’t be taken in by “look over there” politics. The problem is men. Trans women are just a distraction. Don’t fall for it.

Edited

It’s good you are looking at numbers. The numbers of people disadvantaged by toilets not being single sex are in the millions.

Public toilet design takes into consideration safety and health. The gaps you see underneath and above doors and partitions of toilets are there for many reasons - but fundamentally can save lives because it immediately tells others the occupant is in danger. From the data I have it prevents assaults as the woman/boy/girl is not in a sound resistant private cubicle.

What happens to these gaps if the space becomes ambiguous as to whether it’s single sex or not? They get closed up. Even in single sex design. I have researched this in great detail why the needs of medically vulnerable people were ignored in design consultations. I saved a young woman’s life by noticing she was not breathing and on the floor of her cubicle.

Hundreds of people collapse behind closed doors each year. The company who advised the government on toilet design for those with long term health conditions for Document T did not look at most long term health conditions including crucially heart conditions. 11% of people having a cardiac arrest are in a toilet room but they didn’t acknowledge that. There was also no mention of diabetes or epilepsy. Together, all the conditions affect millions in this country.

There’s been a huge investment in defibrillators in the community but you need to know the person has collapsed. It is not uncommon to find people dead in public toilets.

Do you know why the Stonewall gold-award company who advised the government recommended an enclosed design for people with long term health conditions? Because transactivists in New York nightclubs preferred them. That was their evidence source which was from two American transactivist toilet designers Susan Stryker and Joel Sanders.

We have a situations where there are rapes in places you would think were safe. The last full figures that are published are over 1 per school day in schools (the BBC researchers said this was an underestimate) and over 1 per day in hospitals (this is an approximate rounded up figure as the Daily Mirror’s FOIs to the police were incomplete).

So where do you think these rapes are taking place? In view of people? It seems not as very, very few perpetrators ever get charged.

In reality what happens is that there are more preventable deaths and more locations for undetected assaults. In terms of assaults, it affects children and women more. In terms of deaths it affects medically vulnerable (both mental and physical health) and drug users the most ie vulnerable people.

We are all safer going to toilets that have door gaps in them. It is even scientifically proven we are less likely to catch a disease.

These are the real life consequences of placing total privacy before health and safety. No mixed sex design has door gaps. Fewer single sex designs do now too because of men’s behaviour (voyeurism mixed with the inability to stop men coming into women’s toilets).

The Supreme Court decision was a massive step in the right direction to make toilets safer for everyone.

elgreco · 25/08/2025 13:00

Honestly, id be too scared to say anything but I'd leave immediately and report him if possible. Although i live in Ireland where self id is legal, so reporting him would probably be pointless.

ArabellaScott · 25/08/2025 13:02

Fiflaboeuf · 25/08/2025 12:58

The thing is without asking to see someone’s junk how the fuck do you know it’s a trans person. I was accosted in a ladies queue with my DD who is female but has short hair recently: we have got to the point where anyone who isn’t conforming to a gender stereotype is confronted and assumptions made.

So what's your solution, make all spaces mixed sex?

BeLemonNow · 25/08/2025 13:02

This is sad. What was about how we would defend our rights (granted I had a mini Q with ikea pencils) has turned into why.

I'm off to enjoy then final summer sunshine and suggest feminists do the same.

Those thinking might find i.e. the five Ds of bystander training helpful.

One option is "distract" so you don't necessarily have to directly confront someone.

ChocolateCinderToffee · 25/08/2025 13:02

Nothing, couldn’t care less.

SirChenjins · 25/08/2025 13:04

Fiflaboeuf · 25/08/2025 12:58

The thing is without asking to see someone’s junk how the fuck do you know it’s a trans person. I was accosted in a ladies queue with my DD who is female but has short hair recently: we have got to the point where anyone who isn’t conforming to a gender stereotype is confronted and assumptions made.

You're absolutely right. How would you know Dolatowski is a bloke without seeing his junk? How on earth would anyone know Andrew Miller was in the wrong toilets?

It's just so utterly perplexing.

ThatBlackCat · 25/08/2025 13:06

Fiflaboeuf · 25/08/2025 12:58

The thing is without asking to see someone’s junk how the fuck do you know it’s a trans person. I was accosted in a ladies queue with my DD who is female but has short hair recently: we have got to the point where anyone who isn’t conforming to a gender stereotype is confronted and assumptions made.

You're really asking us how we know a male from a female? Do you really think society hasn't flourished and dated and reproduced for all these years without needing to see someone's genitals?

Are you really truly saying you can't tell a man from a woman? Seriously? Women and children know with near 99% accuracy a man from a woman.

we have got to the point where anyone who isn’t conforming to a gender stereotype is confronted and assumptions made.

How about you blame the males for violating our boundaries and spaces, causing women to be on high alert and causing this situation in the first place, @Fiflaboeuf , instead of blaming females for our natural response and alertness?

What would you actually do if you saw a transperson in the wrong toilet/changing room for their sex?
Hoppinggreen · 25/08/2025 13:07

TheAmusedQuail · 25/08/2025 12:36

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

Your words, never mine. Although, to be fair, as a rampant feminist I've never seen the insult in being called the c word. I have one. It isn't offensive.

I'm not worried about trans women in the womens loos. You are. Fair enough.

How would you feel about someone speeding past you on the motorway at 100 miles per hour? Or someone you know to be driving drunk?
Illegal certainly but they may not crash and hurt someone so its none of your business and wouldn't bother you?
As a minimum you wouldn't try to get out of their way just in case?
Report it as its clearly illegal and MIGHT be dangerous - not to you they are past you but what about peeople up ahead?

spannasaurus · 25/08/2025 13:08

EmmaThompsonsTears · 25/08/2025 11:52

And there are about 12,000 cis men in prison for sexual offences as we speak.

Yet what dominates the national news headlines, the everyday discourse, and the trending topics on MN? The 150-odd trans ones.

I’m not saying we should ignore sex offences committed by trans people. I’m just saying the balance of discourse is wayyyy off.

If we want to protect as many women and girls as we can, talking endlessly about toilets isn’t the way to do it. It’s a distraction and it’s incredibly frustrating.

The "cis men" aren't being placed in womens prisons but some of the trans identified men are. If women hadn't made a fuss there would be more male rapists and sex offenders in womens prisons now

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/08/2025 13:13

Fiflaboeuf · 25/08/2025 12:58

The thing is without asking to see someone’s junk how the fuck do you know it’s a trans person. I was accosted in a ladies queue with my DD who is female but has short hair recently: we have got to the point where anyone who isn’t conforming to a gender stereotype is confronted and assumptions made.

How has anyone, since the beginning of time, been able to correctly sex a person without asking to see their ‘junk’. Absolutely baffling that I’ve managed, as a heterosexual person, to fancy all the men I’ve fancied without asking to see their willies first to determine they are in fact, men. My partner has long hair funnily enough.

I’m sure the minute your daughter opened her mouth to speak all doubt was removed. How funny all these gender non conforming women who are suddenly now being accosted in toilets because of - check notes - having short hair and looking slightly ‘masculine’. Because humans suddenly can’t tell the difference. It’s fucking BS.

Still not a reason to allow males, however they identify, into women’s spaces. For the hard of thinking.

BeLemonNow · 25/08/2025 13:15

Fiflaboeuf · 25/08/2025 12:58

The thing is without asking to see someone’s junk how the fuck do you know it’s a trans person. I was accosted in a ladies queue with my DD who is female but has short hair recently: we have got to the point where anyone who isn’t conforming to a gender stereotype is confronted and assumptions made.

If a serious question, that's partly due to how the TRAs are framing the debate.

Transwomen are the exact opposite of women with short hair - they are men trying to look as female as possible.

Noone familiar with the situation is likely to mistake one for the other. But TRAs are confusing the situation for their gain.

I've also seen some try to get transmen go into women's loos to frighten us/make a point.

I'm sorry you were "accosted". If we have male/female facilities occasionally there will be misunderstandings, but should clarify once they hear your voice.

Faceonthewrongfoot · 25/08/2025 13:16

I was in a hotel spa/gym changing room once and a male transperson came in and started to get changed. I needed to get changed in to my swimming stuff, and there was another woman in their too (no cubicles). I ended up faffing about in my locker til they'd gone as I didn't feel comfortable getting changed. Other woman did the same thing and after they'd gone we both commented on how awkward it was.

This was probably 15 years ago, and I would probably do the same thing again - I don't think I'd feel comfortable saying anything.

Petitchat · 25/08/2025 13:19

EmmaThompsonsTears · 25/08/2025 11:40

Trans people are less than 1% of the population. Let’s say for argument’s sake that trans women represent half of that group (and trans men the other half). In England and Wales, criminals represent 1.12% of the general population (based on the gov.uk statistic that there were 11.2 arrests for every 1000 people in England and Wales). It’s probably much less than that because that’s just arrests, not convictions.

My maths might not be perfect here, but add that up and we’re talking about 0.0056% of the population, or 5.6 per 100,000.

Based on the population of England and Wales, that’s about 3,000 people overall. And the percentage of criminals who are sex offenders is 3%. So in the whole of England and Wales, we’re talking about around 90 people who might be trans women and also sex offenders (and this is a massive overestimation based on arrests, not number of criminals).

Then you have to look at the fact that the overwhelming majority of sex offences are committed by people who are known to the victim, not strangers. (Only 12% are committed by strangers). So that cuts us down to 10 people, across the whole of England and Wales. Not accounting for repeat arrests / crimes committed by the same person.

Again, maths is far from perfect here and it’s probably a much lower figure than that. Then of those 108 people, we’re worried that they’re all going to choose a toilet as their preferred crime hotspot.

It’s very unlikely.

Of course, you might say that any chance of sexual assault is intolerable, and I’d agree with you there. However, I don’t think that this tiny tiny percentage is where we should all be focusing our attention.

The overwhelming statistical likelihood is that if you’re going to be attacked or abused, it’s going to be by a cis man. They don’t need to put on a dress to harm us, I’m afraid.

The problem is with men, and we are persecuting a small group of trans women because the powers that be have scapegoated them. It’s ridiculous and distracts us from the real problem, which is male violence against women.

Don’t be taken in by “look over there” politics. The problem is men. Trans women are just a distraction. Don’t fall for it.

Edited

So we should look the other way if we see a man in the ladies?
Because the problem is other men?
We should accept the smaller risk of this small group of men in our toilets?

Okaaay...
Even if there are young unaccompanied girls in there?

And who's persecuting a small group of transwomen anyway?
We're just saying we don't want men in the ladies.
As now stated in law.

Are you saying the Supreme Court is persecuting this small group of men or we women are?

Or both. Do you think we're both persecuting?
Bit paranoid aren't you?

BeLemonNow · 25/08/2025 13:21

The good thing is now we can challenge where safe and appropriate to do, trusting our instincts about a situation.

So a father waiting outside the women's loo for his daughter can legitimately intercept the likes of Katie Dolatowski.

BeLemonNow · 25/08/2025 13:24

@EmmaThompsonsTears I would recommend you read "Women who wouldn't Wheesht", about Scottish Terfs. All money goes to women's charities/causes. It wasn't the media opposing, it was and still is us, women.

ArabellaScott · 25/08/2025 13:29

SirChenjins · 25/08/2025 13:04

You're absolutely right. How would you know Dolatowski is a bloke without seeing his junk? How on earth would anyone know Andrew Miller was in the wrong toilets?

It's just so utterly perplexing.

The judge suggested Miller's victim may have believed he was a woman, and that perhaps contributed to her decision to get into his car.

Namelessnelly · 25/08/2025 13:30

Fiflaboeuf · 25/08/2025 12:58

The thing is without asking to see someone’s junk how the fuck do you know it’s a trans person. I was accosted in a ladies queue with my DD who is female but has short hair recently: we have got to the point where anyone who isn’t conforming to a gender stereotype is confronted and assumptions made.

Err… cos we have eyes?? Are you saying that you can’t tell the difference between a man or a woman if they’re not naked? Have you tried specsavers? They’ve got a two for one deal. * other opticians are available.

FattyMcFattyArse · 25/08/2025 13:33

Dominoeffecter · 25/08/2025 12:00

Who would let a 6year old go in to the toilet on their own.

Plenty of mothers and most probably all fathers. Because women's loos are generally safe places for children because they are only accessed by women.

Oh wait...

OP posts:
Petitchat · 25/08/2025 13:34

Velmy · 25/08/2025 11:43

So ok. If you’re ok with sharing spaces with men, why don’t you use the unisex facilities with your trans brethren

Have done, for years. Yet to be attacked! 🥳

leave those women who do want single sex spaces to have them?

Please point out where I've said that women who want single sex spaces shouldn't have them.

I have, repeatedly, said that I wouldn't care if I saw a trans person in the loo/changing room.

the fact you’re not telling males with a trans identity to stop making women uncomfortable but telling women to “reframe their trauma” to make these males comfortable show you know fine well they’re not women, you just hate women

It's not my job to tell anyone anything. Much less to assume that another woman would be uncomfortable at the presence of a trans person.

Again, please point out where I've given my opinion on whether trans women are women or not. Or just crack on with putting words in my mouth.

It must be absolutely awful being so unremarkable a women that trans people existing makes you angry. Couldn't imagine it myself.

Where has it been said that "trans people existing makes you angry"
Please point it out, I missed it.

Petitchat · 25/08/2025 13:40

Velmy · 25/08/2025 11:48

I think if they are that bothered about changing/using a public toilet incase a man pops in, they'd feel much better not using them.

Are you a male or female, if you don't mind me asking?
I am female.

TheKeatingFive · 25/08/2025 13:41

EmmaThompsonsTears · 25/08/2025 11:40

Trans people are less than 1% of the population. Let’s say for argument’s sake that trans women represent half of that group (and trans men the other half). In England and Wales, criminals represent 1.12% of the general population (based on the gov.uk statistic that there were 11.2 arrests for every 1000 people in England and Wales). It’s probably much less than that because that’s just arrests, not convictions.

My maths might not be perfect here, but add that up and we’re talking about 0.0056% of the population, or 5.6 per 100,000.

Based on the population of England and Wales, that’s about 3,000 people overall. And the percentage of criminals who are sex offenders is 3%. So in the whole of England and Wales, we’re talking about around 90 people who might be trans women and also sex offenders (and this is a massive overestimation based on arrests, not number of criminals).

Then you have to look at the fact that the overwhelming majority of sex offences are committed by people who are known to the victim, not strangers. (Only 12% are committed by strangers). So that cuts us down to 10 people, across the whole of England and Wales. Not accounting for repeat arrests / crimes committed by the same person.

Again, maths is far from perfect here and it’s probably a much lower figure than that. Then of those 108 people, we’re worried that they’re all going to choose a toilet as their preferred crime hotspot.

It’s very unlikely.

Of course, you might say that any chance of sexual assault is intolerable, and I’d agree with you there. However, I don’t think that this tiny tiny percentage is where we should all be focusing our attention.

The overwhelming statistical likelihood is that if you’re going to be attacked or abused, it’s going to be by a cis man. They don’t need to put on a dress to harm us, I’m afraid.

The problem is with men, and we are persecuting a small group of trans women because the powers that be have scapegoated them. It’s ridiculous and distracts us from the real problem, which is male violence against women.

Don’t be taken in by “look over there” politics. The problem is men. Trans women are just a distraction. Don’t fall for it.

Edited

So how many women are you happy with being collateral damage so that these men can get what they want?

Let's put a number on it? Or do you not care how big that quota gets so long as the men are happy?

Yes, the problem is men. 'Transwomen' ARE men. You know that. On what grounds would you treat these men differently to other men when it comes to women's safeguarding?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/08/2025 13:44

TheAmusedQuail · 25/08/2025 12:43

And I answered the question of 'What would you actually do.'

I'd use the toilet.

OK.

What do you think women who aren't comfortable using mixed sex toilets should do?

Petitchat · 25/08/2025 13:45

Velmy · 25/08/2025 11:48

I think if they are that bothered about changing/using a public toilet incase a man pops in, they'd feel much better not using them.

If you ever do get raped or assaulted by a man, do you think your views would change?

Obviously, I hope you never do.
But if......??

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread