Why are so many GC women pro-Israel?

[Krakinou]

This is a feminist forum. It’s in the name. I’m a feminist, therefore logically atheist and frankly anti-religion. Certainly against any kind of religious nationalism (Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc.)

But surely feminism is about liberation for all women, not just the ones we agree with? The destruction of patriarchal structures, not of women and children who are conditioned by them?

I constantly see snarky comments in GC articles about Gaza and dehumanizing comments about Palestinians and Muslims generally on this board. And minimizing of the suffering of the tens of thousands of people being murdered in an internationally recognized genocide. I don’t get it. It seems out of sync with the general mumsnet feeling too - I get the impression most people on mumsnet are pretty horrified by Israel’s actions.

Does anyone else get the same impression? If so, what is the connection between being Gender Critical and being anti-Palestine? Is it just that the leftist terfs aren’t so represented here?

I’m in a feminist group in Spain and it doesn’t have the same issue at all.

I haven't seen the minimising of anyone's deaths.

I am pro- the state of Israel existing and GC. I think the overlap between the two is being able to think for yourself and investigate what is really happening, rather than believing something just because it has gained traction in society.

I was horrified by the October 7th attacks and ever since I have been horrified by how Hamas has been completely written out of the narrative of what is happening in the ME. Normally when people act with deliberate brutally we recognise it exacerbates the horror of their actions and motivation (such as when the JIhadi 'beatles' beheaded people). Yet there was no such reaction to the deliberately provocative brutality (the murder and torture and burning alive of babies, children, men and women and the sexual assaults and rapes) of October 7th. I suspect many never even bothered looking into what I had really happened - parents and children were tied together with wire and set alight, a baby a few months old was shot in the head in their bed. Instead, pro-palestinians were organising marches in the West, as the attacks were happening. And then in the immediate aftermath too. The tearing down of hostage posters, the immediate denial of atrocities on October 7th despite the overwhelming evidence of it, recorded by the perpetrators, reminded me of Holocaust denial. The tearing down of the posters of hostages was utterly stomach churning in its dehumanising repugnance.

And ever since then the fact that Israel since October 7th has been reacting to the actions of Hamas is completely obliterated from the narrative. And that shows the deep bias against israel and against Jews. No other state is held to the standard that Israel is. The deaths in Gaza, inflated as they are by Hamas who include fighters in the death counts, adults as children, and include all deaths regardless of whether they are caused by the conflict, are not high for an intense urban war and would be even lower if Hamas sheltered its citizens in its tunnel network, as other governments would do in wartime. And of course none of the deaths from the combat would have happened if Hamas had not started the war through murdering Israeli citizens and taking hostages to deliberately and knowingly provoke a war.

The destruction of Rafah was due to Hamas evacuating most of the civilians and then booby trapping all of the buildings to kill IDF soldiers operating there. So that is why the IDF responded as they did. But that's left out of the narrative.

We have all seen how Israel created a safe passage for Gazan civilians to return in the previous ceasefire.( remembering that they left as Israel warned them so they could get out safely , a courtesy Hamas did not extend to Israeli citizens). Yet somehow this does not register as Israel seeking to preserve civilian life.

Hamas were using supply of food aid to support their fighters, to keep the civilans under control by controlling their access to food, and to raise funds as they were selling the aid to their civilians. This is why Israel took control of the food supply. Which Hamas has been seeking to disrupt ever since as they need the power and money and food to maintain control.

And of course the 10s of thousands of rockets Hamas and Hezbollah have fired into Israel since the Oct 7th rarely makes the news, nor do the terrorists they have continued to send into Israel to murder civilians. Nor does the fact that Hamas have been open that they will commit Oct 7th atrocities over and over and over again. Nor does the fact that Hamas are open about needing the death of their own civilians to further their cause.

The bias against Israel is shown by the absence of the narrative about Hamas, or about how Israel is responding to Hamas's chosen actions at each stage of the conflict. The culpability of Hamas is utterly absent from the narrative, so that all the blame lands on Israel.

At the end of the day many of the pro-Palestinians don't think Israel should exist, so they don't care about the death of Israelis, but I do. They don't care if Israelis are left at risk from Hamas so of course they have always wanted to war to end immediately, as they don't care about the risk and death that exposes Israelis to. I also care about the death of Palestinians, which is why I hate Hamas and hold them responsible for the consequences of their actions. I cannot understand why pro-Palestinians aren't also raging about Hamas. When I speak to them, they excuse them, minimise them, justify them or simply seek to move the conversation off Hamas and their culpability.

A lot of westerners also don't understand the mindset of Hamas so seem to see them as a 'normal' western enemy government, but they are not. You can talk about a two state solution all you want but Hamas do not want that. They want the destruction of Israel and Jews.

And most of all, I am anti-racism and the blatant racism against Jews has been starkly exposed since October 7th. People won't even name it as a racist, murderous atrocity which it very clearly was. Hamas literally filled themselves walking through the Kibbtuz repeatedly saying ' where are the Jewish dogs? where are the Jews?' yet people still won't name October 7th as a racist atrocity.

So yes, as with gender ideology, I look into things for myself and I think for myself, and the blatant distortion of the narrative against Israel has appalled me. I'm not a war strategist, and neither are those opposing Israel, so I am not going to defend every action, but I've seen and learnt enough to see the utterly unbalanced narrative and blatant prejudice against Israel and it appals me.

Here are few links for people who might be interested in a wider lens than is normally cast on this situation.

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I think one part of it is stepping outside the progressive orthodoxy. That promotes independent thinking, and it’s healthy and unsurprising that GC people end up with a wide range of views on Israel as a result.

Being pro-Gaza/anti-Israel isn’t an inherently left-wing positon. So leaning to Israel is not a rightward shift.

Both Israel and Palestine are liberation movements. Both are ethno-nationalist (one side stridently, one heavily caveated). Both shelter persecuted minorities. Both impose religious strictures (one overtly and violently, one administratively). Neither has an economics that is straightforwardly left or right.

If any GC women want to support British Jews at this time, then please come to the March Against Anti-Semitism on Sunday 7th Sept in London.

antisemitism.org/march/

And I think it is probably a personality type that links GC with pro-israel stance. Being curious,(so that you investigate topics before forming a view), and placing a strong value on personal integrity ( so being prepared to hold a view that follows the evidence even if its not the popular view).

Maybe gc feminists run into reputational trouble in lefty milieux because they are thoughtful and can see both sides, instead of having a knee-jerk 'support the underdog' response. And what's with being 'pro' either of the two peoples? It's not a football match.

Kissinger famously said of the Iran-Iraq war 'its a pity they can't both lose'. My feeling about the present conflict is that its a pity they can't both WIN. There was a time when this seemed like a possibility, but I don't expect it now, in my lifetime or, indeed, ever. It's unutterably sad.

I am GC and support Israel's right to exist and fight for the safety of its people.

I think people who are GC are likely to be better at critical thinking, and less likely to go along with the crowd, so are more likely to support Israel.

I have always been left wing, and vaguely supportive of Palestinians, felt it was important not to label criticism of Israel as anti-semitism, but didn't think much about it. I was shocked by October 7th, it made me aware that Hamas are truly evil, and I think any country that suffered such a horrific attack has the right to take steps to prevent it happening again. It's obviously awful when civilians, especially innocent children, are killed and injured in wars, but the actions of Hamas have greatly contributed to the numbers of civilian casualties in this war.
I've also been shocked by the levels of anti-semitism I have seen in this country since the attack.

After what I've learned since the trans nonsense began, I've been a lot less shocked by the left wing press uncritically publishing Hamas propaganda, and the numbers of left wing sheep taking part in the anti Israel protests when they have zero knowledge or understanding. Not even knowing which river and sea they're chanting about.

I think the rise of the Omnicause is part of the gentrified left having mostly abandoned class and economics as its central driver, and adopted Foucauldian postmodernism and critical theory.

What you get instead of class is an unthinking identification with any group identified as the underdog, based on an idea that they're all rebelling against the same power structure (call it capitalism, Yankee imperialism, the cisheteronormative patriarchy, The Man) and are therefore part of the same cause. How you get your list of approved underdogs is another matter, and it doesn't do to question this.

That's why you not only get Palestine flags on trans protests, or trans flags on pro-refugee protests, you get constant attempts to rationalise why these are actually the same thing. I stay in touch with what lefties are saying, and I'm currently hearing stuff like "those Epping mums who say they're worried about a migrant hotel near their daughters' school are just repeating racist lies about brown men's sexuality which are the same as terfs scaremongering about transwomen in toilets".

You know anyone in the left activist scene, you hear this sort of reasoning constantly. All their key issues are connected and somehow Palestine is the crazy glue that connects them.

And because of social pressure, people I know who'll privately admit that the left has both a misogyny problem and an antisemitism problem can't bring themselves to think that maybe their pet issues of trans and Palestine provide cover for lots of nasty impulses to hide in plain sight.

The right has its own omnicause tendencies, but they seem to me to be less severe, because the right is inherently less ideological and less driven to make every issue part of one consistent narrative. So someone like Douglas Murray is massively pro-Israel, but he doesn't feel the need to mention Israel when he's writing or speaking about unrelated issues. Compare that to say Owen Jones.

I'm not sure I'd say that I've moved right, though some people would say that. It's more that, having been cancelled from the left, I'm now free to not take all my opinions as a job lot. I can examine things I thought I believed, think about why I believed them, weight up the views of people I wasn't supposed to listen to, and maybe conclude I was wrong about certain things.

And finally: if people can lie to you that men are women, what else are they lying about?

GC women are less likely to be performatively pro-Palestine, because we've seen where mindlessly waving flags, chanting mantras and applauding celebrity gobshites leads.

As to why the TRA waving the Palestinian flag, it's not terribly surprising to witness when their first thing was to force team with LGB, which has nothing to do with the T.

Oh yes, and i'm sick of the weekly demonstrations outside my locals station. A pile of a mixture of white retired champagne, socialists and ethnic minorities all standing around with whistles and, wooden spoons, banging tins and waving flags. Who knew a wooden spoon was an effective tool to end a war.

What honestly do they think they achieve. They actually accost you on the way into the station, and they stand right in front of the exit, so you can't get in or out without having to interact with them, which I don't want to.

.I'm sick and i'm tired of it and i'm not supporting the cause. It's their war it's nothing to do with me.

Supposing palestine, get what they want.You really think there'll be a utopia. It will turn in to yet another arab, failed state, a hot bed of terrorism and political instability.And mass suffering of the people. That's what we take.The place of israel, if they ever get what they want, which thankfully they won't.

The display over iran and how defenceless they were in the face of air strikes proved everything. Taking on any one of these failed states is like shooting fish in a barrel. They simply are all talk and don't have the defensive capability to achieve their aims. Which is why they should accept a deal and end this. But they won't, because they want to annihilate jews.

Palestinian leaders absolutely failing the Palestinian people for decades by preferring to pick repeated fights in the region and not just with Israel either!

Even PA President Abbas admitted Arab leaders were wrong to reject the 1947 UN Partition Plan.

Reject then fight ad nauseum is s terrible, terrible plan as Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman pointed out as they have no real power in the region & should accept a deal. Rejection is a tactical response to a situation they don't have a strategic ability to achieve.

You don't get better deals long after rejecting the best deal there ever was on the table (1947 UN Partition Plan) as all subsequent deals can never be as good.

I agree with this.

Also, i think it can be a bit shallower. That they have so much fun at one protest, they agree to met at the next one, regardless of the cause. And they never think to ask who's deciding the next issue.

And you see , that is where you are going wrong. Because you think Israel is in conflict with Gaza as an act of ' revenge' rather than fighting for survival against a coaltion of enemies explictly dedicated to its destruction, and where Hamas has explicitly stated its attempt to keep on committing October 7th attacks, and has fired 10s of thousands or rockets into Israel since Oct 7th and is still sending terrorists into Israel to murder civilians.

What other country would be expected to tolerate this?

I agree with @SionnachRuadh , and I think this is a really fascinating question: How you get your list of approved underdogs is another matter, and it doesn't do to question this - how do these causes get approved? Why Palestine + TWAW, and not, say, Palestine + women’s rights? And what makes Palestinians so much more supportable by TRAs than, say, Uyghurs?

I suspect this might be true too!

Only israel is expected to tolerate this, and only israel are never allowed to win.

Only israel is never allowed to defend their people.

Queers for Palestine sums it up, they seem oblivious that Hamas throw them off of buildings.

Someone blamed Palestine's homophobia on Israel (the country that has Pride) and if Israel didn't treat Palestine so badly there would be no homophobia. 🙄

Excellent post.

OP, it is really noticeable that you are looking for any reason why a GC woman would be pro-Israel other than we perhaps have some valid points. You have only responded to people shoring up you view that we must be motivated by something other than sound reasons and arguments leading us to be pro-Israel's right to exist. Its possible to disagree with someone but still think they have valid arguments. But you don't seem to believe this.

Instead you ask a question but show no interest in engagement with anyone posting anything that does not concur with your pre-held view.

You have demonstrated a complete lack of curiousity for alternative viewpoints and I cannot respect that. Don't ask questions if you have not genuine interest in the answers. That's just a form of intellectual dishonesty.

In my youth in the 80s it was like this (as no one had heard of gender identity or transactivism, and trans people were rare, almost exclusively male and not portrayed as the most oppressed marginalised victims evah) - Palestine supporters were likely to also be women's rights supporters - think brown-rice-eating, CND-marching, section 28-protesting types who also went on worthy exchange trips to East Germany and praised the feminist credentials of Chairman Mao. (Many were also Militant tendency)

I grew up in this milieu and these people also supported women's rights, genuinely so, despite the actual deep misogyny inherent in lefty structures. It was from women in this movement that I learned about people like Greer and Dworkin, borrowed Spare Rib, was exposed to ideas about pornography and prostitution that still inform my thinking now.

One of the most stunning coups transactivism has pulled off is turn women against women's rights by convincing them that tW are the saddest, most persecuted women of them all – thereby giving males back the control. Now, you can have "women's rights" and yell "smash the patriarchy" but conveniently they are not actually women's rights as they include women's oppressors - and furthermore any women who isn't on board with that can be righteously witch-hunted.

But ask a TRA or well-meaning ally and they will insist they care about women's rights. They just don't mean women, they mean "women".

I haven’t seen that connection at all, though I should qualify that by adding that in RL there are very few people both feminist and not who I know who are positive in any way about Israel’s slaughter of the Palestinians. The vast majority of pro Netanyahu’s Israel are on line and I think mostly not from the uk. Those that are from the UK I would imagine have Israeli family etc.

This. Have seen absolutely zero sign of what you 'describe'.

I think it's unfair to suggest OP is deliberately throwing accusations around or being inflammatory. Some people may not have seen any evidence of this but many of us have, and I welcome it being brought up. It's a valid question, even if your answer is that you don't agree for this that or the other reasons.

If nothing else, I think it is good to be aware of and guard against omnicause-like thinking – I think we all should ideally, but just for myself I appreciate threads that reflect on it. That doesn't mean that if you do support either Israel or Palestine, you're doing so in an unthinking, omnicause-type way. As PPs show, many people have thought it through and have a considered opinion. But I have wondered if some GC people are "omnicausing" a bit. It's OK to ask the question and discuss it.

The violent, murderous conflict between Israel and Palestine is being perpetuated by men, and it is overwhelmingly women and children who suffer the consequences. I'm on the side of the latter. Choosing between two teams of male-driven aggressors is nonsensical.

It's threads like this that make me a sporadic visitor to MN.

No evidence offered for a premise that is far from being a generally acknowledged fact.

A highly complex conflict, with a long history, on which most MNers are insufficiently informed to comment with any authority, is reduced to a binary: pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, no nuance permitted.

This 👆 👆 👆