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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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14
TheCatsTongue · 21/08/2025 14:59

JamieCannister · 21/08/2025 14:27

What do you mean by "gay panic" and "trans panic". This is about beign sexuial assaulted as a result of being lied to and not having given consent - trans status or sexual orientation is a side issue.

It is as applicable to a lesbians raped by a dishonest striaght man pretending to be a woman, so it is "heterosexual panic" as much as it is a gay or trans one.

Gay Panic and Trans Panic are common terms used (particularly in the US).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense

Gay panic defense - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense

VioletandMauve · 21/08/2025 15:05

yetanotherusernameAgain · 21/08/2025 07:00

The defendant is 21 but the incident happened "a number of years ago", so they were a teenager at the time. Those photos might be more recent.

He. He was a teenager at the time.

JamieCannister · 21/08/2025 15:21

TheCatsTongue · 21/08/2025 14:59

Gay Panic and Trans Panic are common terms used (particularly in the US).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense

I didn't ask for a dictionary definition, I asked for what you meant.

It seems to me that lying about your sex to trick someone into sexual intercourse is an entirely different thing to an unwanted sexual advance.

IMHO it is reasonable to be angry if someone tricks you (by lying about their sex) or (for example) makes sexual advances despite knowing that their sex does not match with your sexual orientation (if a gay man starts chatting up a man he knows is straight then I think it would be acceptable and normal for the straight man to get angry).

If a gay man meets another (straight) man and starts chatting him up in the hope that he is gay then that is entirely different... so long as "sorry, straight, not interested" is accepted immediately and with grace.

TheCatsTongue · 21/08/2025 15:33

JamieCannister · 21/08/2025 15:21

I didn't ask for a dictionary definition, I asked for what you meant.

It seems to me that lying about your sex to trick someone into sexual intercourse is an entirely different thing to an unwanted sexual advance.

IMHO it is reasonable to be angry if someone tricks you (by lying about their sex) or (for example) makes sexual advances despite knowing that their sex does not match with your sexual orientation (if a gay man starts chatting up a man he knows is straight then I think it would be acceptable and normal for the straight man to get angry).

If a gay man meets another (straight) man and starts chatting him up in the hope that he is gay then that is entirely different... so long as "sorry, straight, not interested" is accepted immediately and with grace.

I think this is just arguing for the sake of it.

I personally do not believe that you cannot take the law into your own hands after sex by deception, whereas you have said that you wouldn't convict someone of murdering someone if sex by deception had taken place.

Do what this man has done and take it to court.

Trans panic is about sex by deception, and in the US men have got away with murder by saying "I didn't know the victim was trans when I slept with them and then murdered them in anger".

BlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBlaBla · 21/08/2025 15:35

that poor bloke, completely deceived into sexual activity with another male. I expect a couple of beers, poor lighting, a late night, lack of spectacles or the assumption he was due to meet a woman.

TheCatsTongue · 21/08/2025 15:39

I have seen cases in the US where homophobic men deliberately sought out a gay man to murder, did it and then claimed that the victim tried to engage in sexual activity and was murdered due to "gay panic".

Sex by deception is wrong, murdering or assaulting the perpetrator is also wrong. Take it to court. I'm not sure this is so hard for you to understand. Murder is not the answer (I can't believe I'm even having to write this).

JurassicPark4Eva · 21/08/2025 15:43

Well, the highly filtered images we've seen to date have been doing A LOT of heavy lifting...

Apologies for the Daily Fail, but I think it's important for us all to see the unfikterd images from outside court.

Man tells court how he found out his date was transgender after she performed sex act on him mol.im/a/15021327 via https://dailym.ai/android

SerendipityJane · 21/08/2025 15:47

sex tends to refer to birth sex

"tends to" ?

TheCatsTongue · 21/08/2025 15:50

JurassicPark4Eva · 21/08/2025 15:43

Well, the highly filtered images we've seen to date have been doing A LOT of heavy lifting...

Apologies for the Daily Fail, but I think it's important for us all to see the unfikterd images from outside court.

Man tells court how he found out his date was transgender after she performed sex act on him mol.im/a/15021327 via https://dailym.ai/android

Hmm... I think after seeing those photos it is going to be very hard to believe that the victim ever thought the accused was a woman.

SionnachRuadh · 21/08/2025 15:50

Gay panic exists among women just as it exists among men. Maybe a bit less, because I think women are inherently more likely to be bisexual, but the really important thing is that a woman is much less likely to injure or kill you.

It's one of the things that go with being same sex attracted in a society that's 95% opposite sex attracted. It's mitigated for gay men by their amazingly efficient hookup culture, but I doubt if there are many lesbians who haven't had the mortifying experience of trying to chat up a woman who turns out to be straight.

This is all fine as long as everyone understands that "no thank you" is the only response that's needed. Honesty is the best policy. It's deliberate deception that's the problem.

There is - and this is well known in the trans community - a subset of male "chasers" who consider themselves straight and have convinced themselves that sex with a penis-having transwoman definitely isn't gay. But those men actively seek out transwomen, and they can knock themselves out if that's their thing.

SerendipityJane · 21/08/2025 15:53

On the subject of violent reactions ...

Nothing - absolutely nothing - justifies murder. In fact murder is by definition a crime - the unlawful killing of a human being.

Not all unlawful killings are murder - hence manslaughter.

And - sadly - some killings can be lawful. For example self defence. In which case there is no crime.

When you start off down the path of imagining and discussing excuses for killing, you are straying in to vengeance not justice. And that is just the law of the jungle where inevitably the strong will do (even more so) as they please.

Not sure that's a great idea.

Balloonhearts · 21/08/2025 16:04

I'm sorry, but how drunk do you have to be that you can't tell that's a man? Christ on a bike!

BeLemonNow · 21/08/2025 16:29

"I work in criminal law. And here is what I feel about this: If it's not disclosed before kissing, that would for me feel like a mild form of sexual deceit. But probably not worthy any criminalization. But to be fooled into doing stuff together in bed would make me feel like I have been wronged in the most intimate setting. And the knowledge that the other person probably had the act of deceit as a strong sexual motive makes it even worse. So I think it should be illegal. It's basically not illegal in most of the world. I think it's illegal in Israel and Britain."

Thanks @PatrickBaitman . I would also argue that any "no disclosure to trans status" is likely to have the worst impact on lesbians who are under a lot of pressure to accept transwomen even with penises as lesbians. As well as being physically weaker. I don't know if any interpretation that didn't reflect that could be discrimination.

It's good that this man who was assaulted came forward. There's clearly written evidence that he did not know he was engaging in sexual activity with a biological male until afterwards. There's still a stigma against male victims of sexual assault coming forward.

Hoardasurass · 21/08/2025 16:32

Balloonhearts · 21/08/2025 16:04

I'm sorry, but how drunk do you have to be that you can't tell that's a man? Christ on a bike!

In the 2+ years since this incident occurred the alleged perpetrator appears to have seriously let himself go (weight gain, lack of fillers and make-up plus no padded/stuffed bra) which makes his maleness more obvious.
Whilst I don't wonder if its part of his defence I noticed that he was very careful to use his bag to prevent an Isla Brison leggings photo

myplace · 21/08/2025 16:46

I actually feel desperately sorry for Ciara. Assuming that’s the only crime and he’s not behaved badly in multiple other ways, obviously.

Teenaged Ciara was a young gay lad, who for whatever underlying reason identified as trans and got fillers and eyelashes. Any semblance of passing as a teenager is clearly over and has left him pretty badly off.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2025 16:51

That picture is a little more revealing, isn’t it?

SerendipityJane · 21/08/2025 16:56

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at authors request

Memoryhole · 21/08/2025 16:57

comparing the real photographs vs the filtered ones is utterly astonishing. And it just goes to show how much of a fantasy land so many transwomen seem to be living in. They really think they pass, fuelled by this fantasy. It is terrifying and profoundly sad. How will they ever come to peace with their bodies when they have such utterly unrealistic expectations? And this helps to explain why their drive for external validation is endless.

SerendipityJane · 21/08/2025 17:03

myplace · 21/08/2025 16:46

I actually feel desperately sorry for Ciara. Assuming that’s the only crime and he’s not behaved badly in multiple other ways, obviously.

Teenaged Ciara was a young gay lad, who for whatever underlying reason identified as trans and got fillers and eyelashes. Any semblance of passing as a teenager is clearly over and has left him pretty badly off.

I realise it's possible to feel many things at once, but feeling sorry for any perpetrator of a sexual assault goes beyond even my #bekind limits.

HidingBehindTheWallpaper · 21/08/2025 17:05

Always the leggings. If I was due in court I would wear leggings. So many better clothing options

Lins77 · 21/08/2025 17:10

HidingBehindTheWallpaper · 21/08/2025 17:05

Always the leggings. If I was due in court I would wear leggings. So many better clothing options

You certainly wouldn't if you were a transwoman who didn't want people to know he had a penis.

It does make you wonder about people's motivations. You could wear anything, but you choose something that clearly shows your crown jewels?

JamieCannister · 21/08/2025 17:12

TheCatsTongue · 21/08/2025 15:33

I think this is just arguing for the sake of it.

I personally do not believe that you cannot take the law into your own hands after sex by deception, whereas you have said that you wouldn't convict someone of murdering someone if sex by deception had taken place.

Do what this man has done and take it to court.

Trans panic is about sex by deception, and in the US men have got away with murder by saying "I didn't know the victim was trans when I slept with them and then murdered them in anger".

I am not a fan of vigilante justice, what I am saying is that there are certain scenarios where being on the end of vigilante justice is almost inevitable. Sex by deception by a gay man on a straight man is one of them. And I am also saying that I see sex by deception very similar to how I see a fight - if you "start it" (the fight, or the deceptive sex) then the the victim can do an awful lot in response before I regard their actions as criminal.

JamieCannister · 21/08/2025 17:14

TheCatsTongue · 21/08/2025 15:39

I have seen cases in the US where homophobic men deliberately sought out a gay man to murder, did it and then claimed that the victim tried to engage in sexual activity and was murdered due to "gay panic".

Sex by deception is wrong, murdering or assaulting the perpetrator is also wrong. Take it to court. I'm not sure this is so hard for you to understand. Murder is not the answer (I can't believe I'm even having to write this).

Killing is not the answer. Vigilante justice is not the answer.

Killing is not always murder. Vigilante justice may not be the answer, but it is inevitably going to happen from time to time (not least if you make the victim or their family incredibly angry by committing a heinous act like rape or sex by deception)

JamieCannister · 21/08/2025 17:18

SerendipityJane · 21/08/2025 15:53

On the subject of violent reactions ...

Nothing - absolutely nothing - justifies murder. In fact murder is by definition a crime - the unlawful killing of a human being.

Not all unlawful killings are murder - hence manslaughter.

And - sadly - some killings can be lawful. For example self defence. In which case there is no crime.

When you start off down the path of imagining and discussing excuses for killing, you are straying in to vengeance not justice. And that is just the law of the jungle where inevitably the strong will do (even more so) as they please.

Not sure that's a great idea.

100% agree with all of that, subject to the small caveat that vigilante justice will always exist, to a greater or lesser extent, and that if you wish to avoid vigilante justice then its a good idea to NOT commit crime, or if you do, don't commit the sort of crimes that particularly anger and upset people to the point that vigilante justice is relatively likely.

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