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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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14
Baby26 · 21/08/2025 12:48

WhyamIinahandcartandwherearewegoing · 21/08/2025 05:59

Didn’t you read the article?

I read the article, and I wonder this too. What's your point? Did you read it all?

DrBlackbird · 21/08/2025 13:08

Haven’t read whole the article but this scenario got me thinking esp that they were young at the time. How young autistic males internalising the TWAW mantra would be legitimately confused and will struggle.

To a certain degree of confidence I can assume an older TW knows full well that they are not a woman and just want to look and act like one within the boundaries of what they think women act and look like.

But a young person? Being lied to at possibly a very young age (yes you are female/male) by unethical teachers / healthcare professionals / surgeons / therapists / govt / parents / orgs / newspapers etc…. Add in the increasingly lost skill of critical thinking thanks to SM and now AI and it adds up to a toxic cocktail of 2 + 2 = 5.

Without someone reaffirming material reality, these young people are, of course, going to be extremely damaged and more of these incidents will happen but possibly with genuine confusion on the part of the teen who thinks they’re trans.

All because of a massive safeguarding and reality check fail on the part of so many professionals. And it’s still going on unabated despite the SC judgement.

PatrickBaitman · 21/08/2025 13:09

JamieCannister · 21/08/2025 12:41

It says "96,7% of hetero males would not even consider dating a trans person" not "trans'woman'". In other words for all we know 100% of hetersexual males would not date a trans'woman', and only 3.3% would date a trans'man' (even if they were 100% unmedicalized and no different to any other woman).

And that is before we get to the cold hard fact that a straight man who dates men (eg trans'women') is not a straight man in any way at all. By definition no straight man is willing to date any other man.

Obviously any trans person who does not reveal their sex is disgusting / coercive / rapey. The only possible exception is if they meet someone who says "I am bisexual and I am happy to date people who may or may not be trans and therefore whose sex I do not know".

I think any sort of unwanted sexual contact is deeply wrong and worthy of a prison sentence. And not only that it is incredibly risky to the point that I could not convict a man of assault or murder if it was in response to sexual deception.

I think rape should start at 10 or 20 years (no parole, longer if parole is on offer) and that sex by deception is as rapey as any other type of rape.

I agree that it's disgusting and "rapey". I think that it's one step milder than if you have to share bedroom with a collegue, and the collegue rapes you while you are asleep(which is 100% rape). Perhaps the sentence should be a bit milder than such a scenario. (I'm just thinking how victimized I would feel in the two scenarios).

You do know that the longer the minimal sentences, the harder it often is to convict. So it's not like longer sentences is unequivocally good, it's often a trade-off.

TheCatsTongue · 21/08/2025 13:10

HRTQueen · 21/08/2025 12:14

I am not convinced he didn’t know

I’ve met a number of men in Thailand who apparently didn’t know that felt disgusted with themselves and played the victim I think it was more likely they wanted to experiment and than felt bad about it. Yes the Thai ladyboys were certainly more feminine than western trans women tend to be but you could still tell

I think this is also probably true, and like with many cases regret or embarrassment after the act can lead to the wronged party putting in a complaint.

These cases could easily be dismissed if the trans person was upfront about who they were (if messages exchanged beforehand detailed it), but because they weren't it goes to trial.

Trans people are putting themselves in these situations because they are not being honest upfront.

ScholesPanda · 21/08/2025 13:11

@JamieCannister The obvious issue with allowing men to murder trans women on the grounds that they were tricked is that a trans woman could declare their identity, the man could shag them, regret it, and beat them to death. It's not like the trans woman would be alive to testify against them, is it?

Men have happily done this to gay men, women who are prostitutes, women who aren't prostitutes etc. so I can absolutely believe they'd do it to a trans woman.

I think this case is awful, and clearly involves a young and possibly vulnerable man. On the face of it the trans woman appears guilty to me (no pun intended). That doesn't mean I'll endorse male pattern violence because it's being used against someone I don't like.

SionnachRuadh · 21/08/2025 13:13

I think the passing issue in these cases comes down to whether the victim was genuinely deceived, or whether it could be argued that they knew what they were getting into. (Though it would be a brave lawyer with a trans client who says "you couldn't possibly have believed my client was a woman")

It could be a factor in those cases, which I assume are rare though they make good headlines, where a woman poses as a man to sleep with heterosexual women. We know women can pass convincingly as men better than the other way round, and that lots of young women are attracted to somewhat feminine men - the whole boy band or K-pop thing.

In those cases I think we're mostly talking about horny young lesbians who have come to the cruel realisation that none of the girls they fancy are interested in same-sex partners. I feel sorry for them, but sex by deception is not an answer to that problem. Similarly, people who adopt trans identities are often slow to realise that they've reduced their dating pool to almost zero.

A big part of the techniques taught on the male pickup artist circuit are about using emotional manipulation to pull women. As distasteful as that is, it's probably impossible to legislate against. But deception as to your biological sex - which affects the protected characteristic of sexual orientation - that should be a no brainer.

ThatsNeat · 21/08/2025 13:17

I'm wondering if this case, and others like it, may be the catalyst for "waking up" straight men to the issues surrounding trans identified males. In this scenario the man has let a "woman" into his safe space and been deceived, and probably made to feel powerless and angry. Will the penny drop that this is how it feels?

Lins77 · 21/08/2025 13:17

ScholesPanda · 21/08/2025 13:11

@JamieCannister The obvious issue with allowing men to murder trans women on the grounds that they were tricked is that a trans woman could declare their identity, the man could shag them, regret it, and beat them to death. It's not like the trans woman would be alive to testify against them, is it?

Men have happily done this to gay men, women who are prostitutes, women who aren't prostitutes etc. so I can absolutely believe they'd do it to a trans woman.

I think this case is awful, and clearly involves a young and possibly vulnerable man. On the face of it the trans woman appears guilty to me (no pun intended). That doesn't mean I'll endorse male pattern violence because it's being used against someone I don't like.

I don't think there's any justification for violence unless necessary for self-defence.

myplace · 21/08/2025 13:25

@ScholesPanda I would say the case involves two vulnerable young men.

And shock doesn’t mean you are allowed to beat someone to death. Unless there is reason to feel personally endangered, violence is not acceptable.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2025 13:26

SionnachRuadh · 21/08/2025 12:40

Sex by deception is one of those areas that's so interesting it often comes up in law exams.

When I was studying, there was a problem question which put the following scenario: You have two women who are identical twins. One twin fancies her sister's husband. She pretends to be her sister to get the husband into bed. On getting him into bed, it turns out that he has a taste for rather rougher sex, including anal, than she had bargained for.

In this scenario, who's liable?

The man might be liable if the woman clearly says no to being penetrated anally and he ignores that, but he might also have a defence if he reasonably believes this is his wife and they have an agreed safeword.

The woman is definitely liable because her premeditated deception goes against him consenting to sex. Even if he's enjoying it, he's been suckered into it under false pretences.

(Disclaimer: my legal ken may be slightly out of date, but I think I've got the gist)

The clear issue here is informed consent. That applies to a man (maybe young, naive, drunk) who doesn't realise his partner is male. It applies to a woman who pretends to be a man so she can get other women into bed.

I think one of the things that first set off major alarms for me on the trans issue was the campaign to amend the law on sex by deception - am I remembering right, or didn't Stonewall explicitly argue for that at one point? It was a clear signal that a certain caste of people feel that the need for consent doesn't apply to them.

Yes, Stonewall and other TRA orgs have long campaigned for sex by deception law not to apply where a “trans person” wants to conceal their sex.

SionnachRuadh · 21/08/2025 13:30

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2025 13:26

Yes, Stonewall and other TRA orgs have long campaigned for sex by deception law not to apply where a “trans person” wants to conceal their sex.

Alex Sharp was the legal person fronting that and IIRC wrote some pretty hair-raising stuff.

It's fortunate that so few actually can conceal their sex, but telling that they want the law disapplied to people with special identities.

PatrickBaitman · 21/08/2025 13:33

"I think the passing issue in these cases comes down to whether the victim was genuinely deceived, or whether it could be argued that they knew what they were getting into. (Though it would be a brave lawyer with a trans client who says "you couldn't possibly have believed my client was a woman")"

Hahaha! That's a funny thought. Criminal lawyers are supposed to protect their clients some times also despite their clients wishes. There are plenty of cases where mentally ill men have confessed to crimes they could not possibly have committed, and the lawyer must then help the clients get off despite the clients own wishes. Or else a miscarriage of justice will almost certainly happen. For example the peculiar case of Thomas Quick in sweden. Thomas Quick: the Swedish serial killer who never was | Europe | The Guardian

If the law is such that the trans women could win the case if it's obvious he is not a woman, but the trans woman refuses her lawyer to argue such a defence because its detrimental to her narcissistic ego, then it is almost like the Thomas Quick scenario. I pity the lawyer taking such a case.

Lins77 · 21/08/2025 13:39

I suppose the judge/jury can still look at the person and draw their own conclusions as to what a reasonable person might believe...

SteakBakesAndHotTakes · 21/08/2025 13:41

This happened to a friend of mine

TheCatsTongue · 21/08/2025 13:43

ScholesPanda · 21/08/2025 13:11

@JamieCannister The obvious issue with allowing men to murder trans women on the grounds that they were tricked is that a trans woman could declare their identity, the man could shag them, regret it, and beat them to death. It's not like the trans woman would be alive to testify against them, is it?

Men have happily done this to gay men, women who are prostitutes, women who aren't prostitutes etc. so I can absolutely believe they'd do it to a trans woman.

I think this case is awful, and clearly involves a young and possibly vulnerable man. On the face of it the trans woman appears guilty to me (no pun intended). That doesn't mean I'll endorse male pattern violence because it's being used against someone I don't like.

Yes gay panic and trans panic should not be an allowable defence. Many states in the US allow for this defence, and many men have knowingly used this as an excuse to murder.

Indeed this is why sex by deception is a crime, so that you can allow the courts to punish the individual instead of taking it into your own hands.

Falseknock · 21/08/2025 13:49

BunfightBetty · 21/08/2025 12:30

Don’t worry, it’s not radioactive.

Unfortunately, the Daily Mail has been one of the few news outlets who will actually cover these events, certainly in any depth. lt’s a fact that left-leaning news organisations such as The Guardian don’t usually cover any stories that show trans people in any kind of negative light.They just don’t report them usually ,or if they do, put their own spin on them where the trans people aren’t at fault for Reasons. Ditto the BBC, who won’t do any analysis on this, if they mention it at all it will be as a very short article online.

The Daily Mail definitely puts a particular spin on things, but is actually very accurate as to facts. As somebody with critical thinking skills I feel confident to read the DM and take the facts from articles, while being able to spot the spin and make up my own mind.

And in any event, it’s healthy to read widely, take in other views even where they conflict with your own, and not put yourself in a bubble where your own thinking and opinions are never challenged.

This is my own opinion that it is there duty to report incidents like these. Men need to understand that there is transwomen out there lying to get what they want. It is a crime and should be classed as sexual assault as consent would never have been given.

Falseknock · 21/08/2025 13:54

TheCatsTongue · 21/08/2025 13:43

Yes gay panic and trans panic should not be an allowable defence. Many states in the US allow for this defence, and many men have knowingly used this as an excuse to murder.

Indeed this is why sex by deception is a crime, so that you can allow the courts to punish the individual instead of taking it into your own hands.

Edited

If anything they are more at risk by not saying anything. They are transwomen who are gay men with a title approaching straight men. Violence will be committed anyway if they lie about who they are. My partner feels sorry for the youngsters it was easier back in his day now you have all sorts walking around.

TheCatsTongue · 21/08/2025 13:55

ThatsNeat · 21/08/2025 13:17

I'm wondering if this case, and others like it, may be the catalyst for "waking up" straight men to the issues surrounding trans identified males. In this scenario the man has let a "woman" into his safe space and been deceived, and probably made to feel powerless and angry. Will the penny drop that this is how it feels?

This has long been a trope in films and TV, where after sleeping together the woman announces "I'm a man", it's not a new thing. Indeed I suspect it has been a fear of many men for a long time.

You had "There's Something about Miriam" TV series, even a Cornetto advert:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kP9vJGUjyQ

JamieCannister · 21/08/2025 14:10

PatrickBaitman · 21/08/2025 13:09

I agree that it's disgusting and "rapey". I think that it's one step milder than if you have to share bedroom with a collegue, and the collegue rapes you while you are asleep(which is 100% rape). Perhaps the sentence should be a bit milder than such a scenario. (I'm just thinking how victimized I would feel in the two scenarios).

You do know that the longer the minimal sentences, the harder it often is to convict. So it's not like longer sentences is unequivocally good, it's often a trade-off.

I have to say I find your response a little difficult to engage with - the idea that there could EVER be a scenario where you "have to share bedroom with a collegue" is so insane to me as to make me wonder where on earth you come from on all of this!

Maybe the answer to that is to lie to juries then hand out the sentences that the public wants after the conviction has happened?

JamieCannister · 21/08/2025 14:15

ScholesPanda · 21/08/2025 13:11

@JamieCannister The obvious issue with allowing men to murder trans women on the grounds that they were tricked is that a trans woman could declare their identity, the man could shag them, regret it, and beat them to death. It's not like the trans woman would be alive to testify against them, is it?

Men have happily done this to gay men, women who are prostitutes, women who aren't prostitutes etc. so I can absolutely believe they'd do it to a trans woman.

I think this case is awful, and clearly involves a young and possibly vulnerable man. On the face of it the trans woman appears guilty to me (no pun intended). That doesn't mean I'll endorse male pattern violence because it's being used against someone I don't like.

I don't believe I said anything about how the law should deal with this issue, but I did say "I could not convict a man of assault or murder if it was in response to sexual deception." What I meant by that is "if I was on a jury and the defendent was a man who had been deceived as to the sex of his partner, I could not find him guilty of assault or murder."

PatrickBaitman · 21/08/2025 14:21

ThatsNeat · 21/08/2025 13:17

I'm wondering if this case, and others like it, may be the catalyst for "waking up" straight men to the issues surrounding trans identified males. In this scenario the man has let a "woman" into his safe space and been deceived, and probably made to feel powerless and angry. Will the penny drop that this is how it feels?

As a male I will say perhaps not. I think most of us will feel we probably have a good enough radar that it will never happen to us, and if we discover that we brought another male home then that other male probably doesnt represent a threat to us physically. It's probably mostly a lesbian problem. Perhaps if it becomes more widespread, so it is seen as reasonably possible that it might happen to us. My normal buddies would laugh at this issue and forget about it, it doesnt concern them.

On 9gag, where I browse humor pictures, there are almost only other males, and gender ideology is one of the biggest issues that's being ridiculed on a daily basis, and have been for 10+ years. The biggest "peak trans" catalyst is without doubt the males in women sport. Especially Lia Thomas and the 100kg australian rugby player I cant remember the name of, and any males in boxing/mma. The users have strong feelings about this as unfair and dangerous. There's plenty of negative posts about the gender grooming of children and trans women in women prisons too, but my experience is that it's the sports issues is the thing that really opens the eyes of people.

It would be nice if we could get more cases like Lia Thomas. Huge trans women towering over their opponents is so absurd that no matter how progressive you thought you were you just can't but question how the hell did we come to this, "all we did was agreeing that trans women are women, out of emphaty".

JamieCannister · 21/08/2025 14:22

myplace · 21/08/2025 13:25

@ScholesPanda I would say the case involves two vulnerable young men.

And shock doesn’t mean you are allowed to beat someone to death. Unless there is reason to feel personally endangered, violence is not acceptable.

I am not sure anyone is justifying murder, ever. But I am sorry, people who do things that make men incredibly angry (trick them into gay sex when they are straight, sexually assault their young daughter) can reasonably expect to get an adult male response - and significant levels of violence could well be part of that response, because lots of men get violent when angry, whether or not we like that.

FAFO

MarieDeGournay · 21/08/2025 14:23

All the cases of this kind of deception that I've read about up to now have involved women pretending to be men, and as far as I remember they got prison sentences - in this case, 10 years.

The judge said 'it was not a case of gender dysphoria but of using "deceit and lies" to achieve sexual gratification'

An investigating detective said "Without the full facts, the victim was not able to give her consent to a sexual relationship and this whole situation has left her feeling violated and traumatised."

Obviously every case has different details, but '"Without the full facts, the victim was not able to give her consent" sounds pretty universal.
Blade Silvano: Woman who posed as man jailed for sex assaults

JamieCannister · 21/08/2025 14:27

TheCatsTongue · 21/08/2025 13:43

Yes gay panic and trans panic should not be an allowable defence. Many states in the US allow for this defence, and many men have knowingly used this as an excuse to murder.

Indeed this is why sex by deception is a crime, so that you can allow the courts to punish the individual instead of taking it into your own hands.

Edited

What do you mean by "gay panic" and "trans panic". This is about beign sexuial assaulted as a result of being lied to and not having given consent - trans status or sexual orientation is a side issue.

It is as applicable to a lesbians raped by a dishonest striaght man pretending to be a woman, so it is "heterosexual panic" as much as it is a gay or trans one.

LittlePigRobinson · 21/08/2025 14:49

Seainasive · 21/08/2025 07:51

I’m so confused. Isn’t a transgender woman a transman?

It makes it easier if you replace 'transgender' with 'pretend'.
Eg transgender woman = pretend woman ie a man.

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