World boxing introduces mandated testing

[impossibletoday]

https://x.com/RealWorldBoxing/status/1958144619079770572?t=qA9DJpJw1sKHL9tVlI32Gg&s=19

Mandatory.........

Honestly I don't think this is as common as people believe. Yes it must be very confusing for those people in less developed areas of the world where they may not have had access to appropriate medical assistance in childhood but by adolescence all people with the DSD that Khelif and Semenya have are very aware they are male as is everyone around them. Sports scouts go into the rural areas of their countries searching out 'girls who turned into boys' to train them up for sports success - none of them are under the misapprehension that they are female once they pass around age 14. It's deliberate, that's why they are scouted.

The particularly fuckwitted thing about this argument is that none of your examples compete in categories that are restricted in the areas you mention. The Harlem Globetrotters aren't in a league with height requirements. There are no running events that I'm aware of based on stride length, where you're not allowed in if you don't fit certain physical criteria.

Whereas women competing in women's events are in a category where not everyone is allowed in, and there are requirements you have to meet. Exactly the same as the multiple sports where you have to be below a certain weight. Another example is para sports, which are also only for people meeting particular physical criteria. If something isn't a fully open category, there need to be both criteria and policing of those criteria. Hence weigh ins, cheek swabs, the need to document your disability.

So it's interesting that you don't make this argument in, say, weight category boxing. After all, for millennia big heavy people have competed in sports to take advantage of their natural advantages in life, yet you aren't arguing for someone who's naturally 100kg to be allowed into the 60kg. Do you not understand that a BIOLOGICAL HUMAN can have high natural levels of weight? Constant exposure to this sort of idiot ideology rots your brain from the inside, you know?

'DSD' is not a single condition. You can't make blanket statements like 'by puberty the testes drop'.

They will in some cases; in others they will remain internal; in some there will be only streak testicular tissue rather than full testes. In a few cases the person will have no testicular tissue at all and very rarely (a proportion of people with Swyer syndrome) they have an almost complete set of female sex organs - only missing the ovaries.

Different DSDs present differently, and give different levels of advantage. The most common ones in sport are probably 5-ARD and PAIS, which give a large advantage with few associated health problems, CAIS gives a much, much smaller advantage (but even a slight edge will mean over-representarion). Swyer comes with a lot of health problems so is very unlikely in a high level athlete.

High levels of testosterone in females - anything above 2.4nmol - usually around 5nmol is a very high natural level and causes hirsutism and infertility in women. Normal male levels are 10-35nmol. It's quite the difference.

Please stop saying 'Do you understand that a BIOLOGICAL WOMAN can have high natural levels of testosterone? '

TESTOSTERONE LEVEL CHART - NORMAL FEMALE RANGE / PCOS RANGE / NORMAL MALE RANGE

This is the chart was made using information from the Handelsman et al 2018 paper below.

The 'Caster Semenya' line refers to what the IOC had specified that Semenya and others needed to suppress their testosterone levels down to, resulting in Semenya trying to overturn this at CAS.

Semenya was noted in that CAS case to have the difference in sex development categorised as 5-ARD and had testosterone levels of around 21 nmol/L.

The Hubbard line was the testosterone level that males with transgender identities had to suppress to for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics.
This is tweet where you can find the chart.

https://x.com/rorybowman/status/1819232725175620084

This is the study

Circulating Testosterone as the Hormonal Basis of Sex Differences in Athletic Performance
David J Handelsman, Angelica L Hirschberg, Stephane Bermon
Published: 13 July 2018
https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/39/5/803/5052770?login=false

PCOS & FEMALE PEOPLE WITH HIGHER TESTOSTERONE

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).
5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Plus there is this:
twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this
The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population.

Plus this discusses the ranges

^https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581^
The International Olympic Committee framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness for female athletes

“In adulthood, circulating testosterone concentrations do not come close to overlapping between females (0.1–1.7 nmol/L) and males (7.7–29.4 nmol/L).”

plus that Hoovlet post with handy charts in the tweet
https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819017510005407984

“Confirmed. No overlap in T levels between healthy men and women, and rarely in people with atypical levels”.

“Below I'll include some info from my book on T and sex diffs. First is an illustration of the combined data from a meta-analysis of studies on a healthy population (by David Handelsman), and another on T levels in ppl with medical conditions/DSDs (by Richard Clark). I've also included my text description of the data. The original illustration is from Doriane Coleman's excellent Sex in Sport article (link is in the graphic). She let me adapt it for my book but hers is clearer!”

If you are using the term 'woman with high testosterone', plus check your sources and don't spread misinformation. Female people with PCOS, women, DO NOT HAVE male levels of testosterone!

Constant Hate rots you from the inside, you know?

TRAs must be crumbling at a rate of knots with all their hatred of women.

The Harlem Globetrotters are all exceedingly tall.

They are. For people, they are very tall indeed. But there is no overlap between the height of Harlem Globetrotters and the height of giraffes.

The difference between male and female testosterone levels is of greater magnitude than the difference between human and giraffe height.

As an aside, a quick search for Halem Globetrotter and giraffe turned up this rather sweet photo (in which the human is standing on a very high platform): https://media.gettyimages.com/id/2152992399/photo/sydney-australia-wham-middleton-interacts-with-giraffe-during-a-harlem-globetrotters-media.jpg?

'Constant Hate rots you from the inside, you know?'

Is that the issue here for you?

You are now trying to use the 'some women have very high testosterone' argument which as I have just posted is simply not true. Any female person with testosterone levels that over lap with a healthy male athlete is likely to be gravely ill and needing immediate treatment, likely for a tumour.

But you then try to bring in genetic advantages such as height to bolster your false information.

Well, duh! Yes, athletes with particular advantages such as height do tend to group at elite level. The thing is though, that it is still possible that there will be female athletes with for instance a height advantage that can be beaten by a female athlete without that height advantage.

Maybe this on the 'Phelps fallacy' will help. I guess it is up to you to read this and to understand it. I can only assume you will ignore it.

The point is, even Michael Phelps got beaten by someone who did not have his specific advantages. He was beaten by someone who had a different set of advantages.

Here is a good explanation. It has links to relevant information embedded so it is best to see it on twitter.

COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE / PHELPS GAMBIT / PHELPS ARGUMENT

https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1374331296143581186
But here is some of it:

Phelps' wingspan:height ratio is 1.04. It's straightforward to find other males with the same ratio who are slower than Phelps in some strokes, but who are faster in others. e.g. Matt Grevers. Ratio 1.04, slower freestyle than Phelps, faster backstroker than Phelps. Interestingly, despite the same wingspan:height ratio, he's, in absolute numbers, generally bigger than Phelps.

What you never find is a female with the same wingspan:height ratio who is there or thereabouts compared with Phelps. Missy Franklin has a ratio of 1.03, yet is over 10% slower than Phelps.

It's almost like wingspan:height ratio isn't discriminatory in the pool. Even absolute wingspan or absolute height isn't discriminatory.

And there's a very simple reason. When you select, on national or international levels, for athletes that are good in a particular discipline, you will tend to pull through an entire group who all share the general advantage (in this case, swimmers are tall with long arms). Phelps, with height (not the tallest) and wingspan (not the widest, nor the biggest ratio) is, for sure, built to be a better swimmer than almost every other person in the world. But his body shape is not particularly extraordinary within that group of competitive swimmers.

To argue that his advantage is extraordinary within the entire male population, sure. Well, I wouldn't go with unfair, but's a real advantage. But he doesn't race against the male population. He races against other males who are likely to share the same advantage.

This is why The Phelps Gambit (trademark pending) is nonsense, and immediately flags that the person asserting it has read numerous MSM stories about the glorious physique of Phelps (and he was glorious, absolutely), without applying any deeper analysis.

Men can have long arms. Women can have long arms. Men with long arms are better swimmers than women with long arms.

But this is a better indication of the reality.

Constant exposure to this sort of idiot ideology rots your brain from the inside, you know?

Good. About bloody time too.

Great, but they’re about five global bodies that regulate boxing and have different belts. Is this one that actually matters? Hope so and hope the rest follow this lead. Followed by the governing bodies of all sports, and parkrun at some level, testing would be ott there.

If you are really interested in this discussion, this thread below is an archive thread (ie. not a thread where discussion should be posted, only for relevant links to keep it short enough and keep the information easy to find)

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=1

I have stashed discussion from sports experts on the DSDs you have discussed there too.

CAIS and people with Swyers at the moment will be able to compete as female athletes. There is potential in the future that the athletes with CAIS, who as NotBad pointed out have been over represented in the Olympics when testing has been done, may be excluded based on advantages, such as height, lack of menstruation, if it is found that this is a competitive advantage that is unfair. This will only happen though as female sports gets more studied and the limits of the human body are reached and understood. It might also not be found to be a unfair competitive advantage.

The specific DSD that Semenya has was included in his evidence to the CAS for his case where he fought the suppression of testosterone to compete. Semenya has 5ARD. There are also self published photos that show that Semenya was swimming with male school friends wearing male swimming shorts only as a teenager. No female teenager would be doing this and it shows that Semenya likely understood by that age that Semenya is male.

However, that is my conclusion only. Semenya has known since 2008 when Semenya was tested, that he is male with the DSD 5ARD.

No one with any credible expertise in sports science has ever said that Khelif has CAIS. Because Khelif has a body that shows all the cues of male puberty. Just as Semenya has.

Your posts seem to recycle misinformation that we have been discussing on this board for years. When you read something about these athletes in the media or on social media, can I please suggest you do some basic research before believing what you read.

😂

It must be excruciating to post something such as that poster has been lately and realise just how poorly they have selected the source material to form their opinions.

But to come out with the clangers they do, it really is a sight to behold. The supreme moral righteousness backed by only misinformation and poorly formed arguments is something we see all too often. In that light, Constant Hate rots you from the inside, you know?, becomes pure projection from that poster.

'Constant Hate' is definitely projection. I'm not sure constant hyperbole is particularly healthy either. Certainly does fuck all for strengthening arguments.

Oh thanks. On the strength of your argument I’ve changed my mind and welcomed all men into women’s sport.
SIKE. There are only two sexes

I had to look up SIKE. Glad I did as your post made no sense otherwise. 😁

In the 21st Aug interview they reported that it was Khelif’s former manager Nasser Yesfah who said Khelif had “left the world of boxing.” Khelif disputed this in the interview but I’m guessing that was bluffing and the ex manager knew full well what would happen with mandatory testing.

Then you have totally misunderstood what I was saying.

Of course there are only 2 sexes.

But there are many different DSDs. You appeared to be under the impression there was only one, and that everyone who had it presented in the same way. That's very much not the case. It's not a single condition, but a large and varied group with different causes and effects.

How easy they are to identify (and therefore what age they're likely to be spotted) varies considerably. The amount by which male DSDs reduce male sporting advantage varies from not at all to quite a bit, but in almost all of them men will retain at least some advantage, and they should therefore not compete in women's categories.

Do you not understand, @StMarie4me , that women have NO WHERE NEAR the level of testosterone that males do, even when higher? It isn't even physically possible for biological women to have anywhere near the level of testosterone males have, as we don't have testicles.

Do you understand that while there may be taller females, they have NOWHERE NEAR the insurmountable ADVANTAGE males have over them and that isn't a justification for allowing a brick shithouse male to slam into a female body or beat them up in the ring?

I know you won't reply because you shit and run and never respond to people correcting you, but FFS, do some RESEARCH before spewing your ill-informed hate against women and ignorance!

I think that poster was trying to be satirical.

Until they ban hitting the head of the opponent, boxing is an inherently unsafe sport for all fighters because of CTE. This is window dressing.