some parallels

[Manfreglory]

I've been teasing out this idea, that transphobia and xenophobia have much in common.

• both rest on 'you're not from here; your culture is different; you can't know what it is to have grown up 'over here'/had period pains/gone through labour.

• both reject difference or change in favour of sameness or stasis. 'You look and talk and think differently/you underwent a journey to get here/I can't fully relate to you'.

• both rest not just on culture but on biology: 'Your genes are different than mine/your genotype for phenotype A, B or C aren't identical to mine'.

• both are territorial: 'i sweated blood as a member of this sex/to make it in this society - who are you to come here and demand a seat at the table'?

• both are suspicious of the reasons for transformation. 'You just want the perks of being female; you just want to look up our skirts in the toilet; you just migrated here from Guatemala for financial stability.'

• both demonize, aggressively overstating the chance that the person has or will commit a crime. (Migrants: no need to give examples, just read the news. Trans people: 'you just want access to 'our spaces'' (i.e. the spaces where women/cis women enjoy their privacy from all men, cis or trans) so you can assault us'.

• both minimize or even deny, the need for the transition: 'No child is born trans/those parents were homophobic as the kid was just gay/trans women are men with their dicks lopped off/people should stay in their home country and migration is too dangerous'.

• both hysterically fear that the trans person/migrant will corrupt innocents: 'they will indoctrinate children in school/they will spread religious fundamentalism'.

Gender critical women: ask yourself if you've been radicalized into the new right.

It has to be toilets for the TRAs because that is the gateway, once they've kicked open that door then access to all the other female only areas and services follows. If they cannot access the women's toiltes then there is no argument to access any other women only space or service, this is why they are so against an additional gender neutral/unisex space despite this being perfectly reasonable.

Perhaps they are reading up on what it means for women to have men in their sporting categories or listening to Sharon Davies on this issue.

OP doesn't strike me as much of a reader/thinker.

Gender isn't real.

HTH.

This. Just this.

You never know they may be reading Helen Joyce or Kathleen Stock right now and gaining a new understanding of this issue.

What about it?

Whaaaaa? No idea what you're saying.

I suppose it's not impossible.

I take that back. Going by the last 2 posts 🙄

A cockroach in a T-shirt reading 'this is the UK' (or whatever), says it all about the intellectual integrity of this deluge.

of course.

Because you're one to be talking about intellectual integrity.

So you know, then, that the answer is that trans men who are still recognisably female looking (i.e. most of them) are perfectly welcome in women's spaces, but that trans men who have succeeded in altering their appearance to the extent that other women cannot tell they are female should not use them. Which changes nothing for those trans men, who are already not using women's spaces.

Not a cockroach but I suppose it's that complicated biology causing problems again.

Do your seriously have a daughter, Manfr? I simply can't understand how you can be so blasé - so childish - when this discussion concerns her safeguarding. You read post after post about the risk posed by males, including transwomen, to females in physical spaces... and you come back with this supremely witty riposte about an online space? You're just not taking this seriously. That attitude should shame you, frankly, whether or not you're a father.

Human beings...not your typical mammal. Most mammals don't wear clothes. Or cook. Or drive cars. If you'd prefer to see humans adhering to mammal 'type' go ahead as sketch out THAT works for us.

at least i'm not posting pics of insects wearing british nationalist t shirts.

I'm seeing a few people per week who appear they could be trans (many more where you can't tell)

Ah, the old 'can't tell but can count' mutual exclusion conundrum

I'm a mother. Who wants her daughter to grow up in a world where nobody is forced to be humiliated by having to use facilities for a group of middle class white TERFS who think she's a fraud and an aberration. Who believes sex in sport or in a rape crisis centre hire, should not be lumped into a person's basic right to dignity and safety. Where debate is careful and takes complexity into account. Where women don't just take to the internet as a tribe and scream shit about 'cutting off a man's penis and putting it in my pocket' and other such nasties. How childish of me.

Not a cockroach

Manfr, I know you've no idea what I'm saying.

I increasingly believe you're either trolling, or are in some way frightened of even trying to understand, presumably because of what that may force you to realise about yourself - your values and/or your capacity to follow the quality of argument on this site.

My last theory is that you're actually two posters, probably teenaged or very young (in every sense) adults, team-tagging - you recurrently show a potential for rational thought that than invariably subsides into childish insult and point-scoring.

Regardless, the effect of your posts is consistently to highlight your own lack of conviction and inadequacy. This lets us make our arguments for the lurkers and posterity as convincingly as ever, while also enjoying the satisfaction of so doing.

What you get from this is a source of absolute mystification to me.

Are you being deliberately obtuse or does it come naturally?

It's not a "British nationalist T-shirt".

The point being made is that things which are a problem in other countries are only relevant to UK policy making if they are actually a problem in the UK.

Is there any evidence that trans identifying people are at risk using the correct toilets for their own biological sex in the UK? I assume not, otherwise trans activists would post it, instead of dubious links to dodgy US news sites about things that have allegedly happened in Alabama or North Dakota.

I think @Manfreglory is actually trying to work through his views and is, in his own rude and dismissive way, actually asking the women (and men) of MN to help him do this, 'cos he knows he would get f-all help in any other online forum.

Anyone who posts, as he has done, You put all trans people together; I suspect there might be different rights of access and usage but I know I'm setting myself up for a virtual bloodbath here knows that the virtual bloodbath is waiting for him on reddit et al.

and scream shit about 'cutting off a man's penis and putting it in my pocket'

No screaming involved

ETA:

Cock and balls not just penis

and it was "shoved In her pocket" not "putting it In my pocket".

"In fact the only way a woman could ever have male sex organs is if they were literally walking around with an actual man's cock and balls cut off the man and shoved in her pocket."