Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

some parallels

604 replies

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 18:56

I've been teasing out this idea, that transphobia and xenophobia have much in common.

  • both rest on 'you're not from here; your culture is different; you can't know what it is to have grown up 'over here'/had period pains/gone through labour.
  • both reject difference or change in favour of sameness or stasis. 'You look and talk and think differently/you underwent a journey to get here/I can't fully relate to you'.
  • both rest not just on culture but on biology: 'Your genes are different than mine/your genotype for phenotype A, B or C aren't identical to mine'.
  • both are territorial: 'i sweated blood as a member of this sex/to make it in this society - who are you to come here and demand a seat at the table'?
  • both are suspicious of the reasons for transformation. 'You just want the perks of being female; you just want to look up our skirts in the toilet; you just migrated here from Guatemala for financial stability.'
  • both demonize, aggressively overstating the chance that the person has or will commit a crime. (Migrants: no need to give examples, just read the news. Trans people: 'you just want access to 'our spaces'' (i.e. the spaces where women/cis women enjoy their privacy from all men, cis or trans) so you can assault us'.
  • both minimize or even deny, the need for the transition: 'No child is born trans/those parents were homophobic as the kid was just gay/trans women are men with their dicks lopped off/people should stay in their home country and migration is too dangerous'.
  • both hysterically fear that the trans person/migrant will corrupt innocents: 'they will indoctrinate children in school/they will spread religious fundamentalism'.

Gender critical women: ask yourself if you've been radicalized into the new right.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
BeLemonNow · 18/08/2025 19:42

Helleofabore · 18/08/2025 19:27

And yet, I don’t feel and have never felt that I have to comply with the Catholic doctrine.

As an ex-Catholic I feel I need to point out that transubstantiation has a logical sort of argument that's has been set out and attempted to defend clearly.

I've yet to see anything comparable from TRA ideology - as you know I've even tried to set this out myself with no luck. So comparison feels unfair.

Transubstantiation considered both a divine mystery (so no claiming it is science) and also relates to Greek philosophy notions of substance and identity, expanded by Thomas Aquinas.

Catholics also these days don't force their beliefs on anyone: in fact other Christians are asked not to take part in communion unless it's a grave emergency.

Boiledbeetle · 18/08/2025 19:45

BeLemonNow · 18/08/2025 19:30

What do you think we all have Freudian penis envy or something? 😂

I don't see anything wrong with mentioning penises when it's relevant. It is a body part.

Penis envy... definitely not! Horrible things all dangly and odd looking.

some parallels
BeLemonNow · 18/08/2025 19:47

TeiTetua · 18/08/2025 18:59

I'm sure that threads of this type are placed here to waste people's time, so they can't go out and indulge in any useful gender-critical activities.

Well, I've put in enough time to say this, but now I'm off.

I'm afraid some TRAs genuinely believe we are in need of education and correction - I've seen discussed on other forums.

Personally I found this thread quite helpful, learnt a fair amount about other country's trans debates and views, a couple of book recommendations etc.

Now buggering off to think about cock cook dinner. TTFN.

lcakethereforeIam · 18/08/2025 19:50

Handy for picnics, I believe. Or, from the smell, any corner of a castle or ancient monument that has a modicum of privacy. Or, during trans demonstrations, statues or memorials especially of suffragettes.

Helleofabore · 18/08/2025 19:50

BeLemonNow · 18/08/2025 19:42

As an ex-Catholic I feel I need to point out that transubstantiation has a logical sort of argument that's has been set out and attempted to defend clearly.

I've yet to see anything comparable from TRA ideology - as you know I've even tried to set this out myself with no luck. So comparison feels unfair.

Transubstantiation considered both a divine mystery (so no claiming it is science) and also relates to Greek philosophy notions of substance and identity, expanded by Thomas Aquinas.

Catholics also these days don't force their beliefs on anyone: in fact other Christians are asked not to take part in communion unless it's a grave emergency.

To be blunt, no one outside the Catholic Church is compelled or emotionally manipulated to support transubstantiation.

If people think that this is a thing outside of the Catholic Church, I am surprised they think this. I am not Catholic and I barely know what you are talking about.

BeLemonNow · 18/08/2025 20:43

Eeek @Boiledbeetle Never realised lemons had a characteristic bulge. Not that sort of bulge. Have to grow up into a lemon tree before thinking about that sort of thing.

The only time I've thought about having male genitalia was when playing cricket as a girl and grateful I didn't have one. Even with protecting it can get very painful.

%3D%3D

I apologise for lowering the quality of the conversation!

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?pp=ygUfRnVubnkgZm91cnRoIHRlc3QgaW5kaWEgY3JpY2tldA%3D%3D&v=BvEMhni28eU

Boiledbeetle · 18/08/2025 20:58

BeLemonNow · 18/08/2025 20:43

Eeek @Boiledbeetle Never realised lemons had a characteristic bulge. Not that sort of bulge. Have to grow up into a lemon tree before thinking about that sort of thing.

The only time I've thought about having male genitalia was when playing cricket as a girl and grateful I didn't have one. Even with protecting it can get very painful.

%3D%3D

I apologise for lowering the quality of the conversation!

Ooft! Painful

VimesandhisCardboardBoots · 18/08/2025 22:45

Manfreglory · 18/08/2025 18:52

OMG with the penises and toilets again. If you took your mind off penises and toilets you might actually have some useful thoughts about the actual problems afflicting 2025.

I don't want to take my mind off my penis. I quite like it, it brings me a lot of joy.

However one of the most important things penis owners need to learn at an early age is not to stick it where it's not wanted. Funnily enough the womens toilets is generally considered one of those places.

MarieDeGournay · 18/08/2025 23:39

Manfreglory · 18/08/2025 18:52

OMG with the penises and toilets again. If you took your mind off penises and toilets you might actually have some useful thoughts about the actual problems afflicting 2025.

You accused us of being obsessed with penises on another thread, Manfreglory, and it didn't end well for you. Spoiler alert: no we're not.

As for toilets - it always amuses me when we are accused of being obsessed with toilets, because everything seems to revolve around where transwomen want to pee!

UKSC issues a ruling on interpretation of the Equality Act 2010?
but we want to pee in the women's toilets!

Demonstration about trans rights?
but we want to pee in the women's toilets and we're going to pee right here if you won't let us!

The Good Law Project's focus in challenging the EHRC/SC ruling?
'companies and public bodies to stop trans people from using toilets in line with their lived gender.'
in other words
'but we want to pee in the women's toilets and we're going to crowdfund a lot of money to tell the Supreme Court they got it wrong when they said we couldn't pee in the women's toilets!'

Sometimes it seems like the T in LGBT must stand for Toilets.

Women, on the other hand, are standing up for women-only spaces other than toilets - hospital wards, rape crisis centres, changing rooms, prisons - but it's peeing in the women's toilet' that is most significant to TRAs, apparently.

CassOle · 19/08/2025 07:49

Look at this lovely chap transwoman. Just the sort that should be in a Woman's shelter and toilets.

Sensitive content
some parallels
CassOle · 19/08/2025 07:59

I don't think the image will pass review even with it being censored. So I have added a lovely white dress using paint.

Sensitive content
some parallels
TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 19/08/2025 09:00

CassOle · 19/08/2025 07:59

I don't think the image will pass review even with it being censored. So I have added a lovely white dress using paint.

Ugh. How revolting.

BeKindWisely · 19/08/2025 22:50

Catiette · 18/08/2025 13:19

To balance my last response - this, in contrast, is a great post. I'm not saying I agree with it all, but it's really interesting.

To address the essence of it, I think most posters recognise the complexities you suggest we ignore, are empathetic about many trans people's plight, and, in a good proportion of cases, actually began this journey thinking as you do.

Many resent having been forced into a proportionately more "absolutist" position than they may otherwise have taken, had this absolutist war not been waged on women and their rights. The stakes set by the TRAs and their ilk are so very high - nothing less than our redefinition and erasure as a legal, political and social class - that previous pronoun-users and space-sharers have been forced to harden their stance, as they saw inches they give became the proverbial stolen miles.

Your post does also misrepresent the degree to which most posters here are "absolutist", though. Your emotive "mass invasion of women's spaces" is indeed unlikely - read instead the numerous posts about how safeguarding works for an explanation of what we actually think. "You put all trans people together" is also emphatically not the case - the priority for many is protecting trans-identifying children, and their different predicament to, for example, grown male transexuals, AGPs and cross-dressers.

This recognition of complexity, coupled with the trans movement's typical failure to recognise or acknowledge it, is what, rather paradoxically, has driven us to a harder line: as long as all these people are "trans", there is no way to distinguish between them, allowing access to some but not others. And indiscriminate access to all equates to massively increased risks to women and children. So as long as TRAs won't permit nuance, we're forced into a rather more wholesale No.

However, I'd say that there's a fairly strong argument that what you're framing as "absolutist" on our part is, in fact, rather more nuanced, and that what you see as your own nuance is actually rather more absolutist. For example, we've been clear that we're largely welcoming of trans-identifying females in our spaces and other threads include nuanced discussion about how best to accommodate those with differences of sexual development.

Of the three possible approaches to accommodating self-claimed "outliers" resistant to sex-based categories -

  1. Make female spaces more "inclusive"
  2. Make male spaces safer and welcoming
  3. Make third spaces more universal

you seem to be focussing on 1) only, presenting our convincing arguments against it as reductively absolutist. Is this an absolutist approach in itself, perhaps?

None of 1), 2) or 3) are easy. All demand large scale societal change. So, I go back to my arguments of previous posts as regards which is the best to fight for - which is safest, and which meets the interests of the vast majority. That would be 3), above. It's certainly not the easiest, of course - that 1) is seen as the easiest target belies the very reason women need their single-sex spaces: sexist disregard for our safety and dignity. And that 2) is never even proposed belies a tellingly absolutist attitude to male and female gendered roles - the former remain unchallenged and unaffected, with the latter expected to bend over backwards.

Edited

Catching up with this thread. I'm way after the fact- but this is such a well thought out response.

Early on as a lurker- I learnt the most from engagements like this between manfreglory and catiette.

That's the value of FWR not being the echo chamber it is so often accused of being.

What other forums (fora?) are conversations like this (however heated and antagonistic they can get) happening on?

As I'm so late quoting this- I do realise things might have gone downhill by the time I get to the end though.😂

Justwrong68 · 19/08/2025 22:55

Does the foreigner in question have a hard on?

CassOle · 19/08/2025 23:00

That is unfortunately correct. Sorry, I mean, that is 'gender euphoria' and totally womanly.

BeLemonNow · 19/08/2025 23:34

Oh are we back to discussing penises? No? Oh nm.

BeLemonNow · 19/08/2025 23:40

R.e. absolutist claims I happened on FWS, the group who took their case to the Supreme Court on this.

some parallels
Helleofabore · 20/08/2025 06:44

Helleofabore · 18/08/2025 13:30

"Trans women competing with born-women in sport? Another thing I'm still trying to learn about so I can form a meaningful opinion. Not there yet. My daughter was regularly beaten by a trans girl when they were little: I didn't love it and interestingly, nor did the mother particularly. There's that. Unlike most on here, I am not an absolutist and I don't think this is simple."

Well, fuck.

Ask fucking questions. We have loads of studies that show without doubt that even from the age of 7 that male athletes have male physical advantages.

But it really is THAT simple when every fucking study shows that no stage of testosterone suppression in a male body that undergoes any part of male puberty removes male physical advantage.

If you want reading material, the link below is a good place to start

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=1

Then, when you consider the evidence that no stage of testosterone suppression in a male body that undergoes any part of male puberty removes male physical advantage, come back and tell us all why the fuck should we be allowing male people into female single sex provisions when the average woman has no fucking chance of fending of a male who could have on average 160%+ more grip strength and significant punch power than her.

Seriously, did you never once think that the entire argument about sport is relevant to safety in single sex spaces? Because a female person has a chance to fend off a female attacker, that is what safeguarding risk includes.

But a male attacker? Really???? You think so... please tell us why with detail not just some overly emotional reasoning that you have been feeding this thread since you started it.

So @Manfreglory

This thread was never intended for you to gain the knowledge or at least the clarity that you keep repeating you lack. Because you have not even acknowledged the information provided or asked any questions about the links provided that would increase your understanding.

Good to know. I think readers have quite a bit to think through with what others have contributed to your thread.

However. I think it is very clear that you never intended discussion. Your posts are all about denigrating a group of women you have demonised but you don’t understand really what they have said, and you don’t really have any deep understanding about why you support your own position.

You must be pleased with the outcome. When can we expect your next thread? Will three be the charm? Will your third belittling, demonising thread show any improvement in your own understanding ?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 20/08/2025 06:49

BeLemonNow · 19/08/2025 23:40

R.e. absolutist claims I happened on FWS, the group who took their case to the Supreme Court on this.

Rory Stewart has been such a disappointment in this debate.

I once worked for him and genuinely thought he was a proper independent thinker.

Turns out I was wrong.

DrBlackbird · 20/08/2025 08:09

BeLemonNow · 19/08/2025 23:40

R.e. absolutist claims I happened on FWS, the group who took their case to the Supreme Court on this.

I remember listening to Rory and Alastair talking about the judgement and they were so breezily dismissive and all ‘surely a compromise was possible’ and clearly had not bothered to do any background reading on women’s concerns in the slightest. Alastair Campbell was not a surprise but it was disappointing that Rory the intellectual couldn’t be bothered. Both smug ‘liberal’ men.

DrBlackbird · 20/08/2025 08:15

Women, on the other hand, are standing up for women-only spaces other than toilets - hospital wards, rape crisis centres, changing rooms, prisons - but it's peeing in the women's toilet' that is most significant to TRAs, apparently.

It has to be toilets along with ‘we’ve always been there and you’ve never noticed before’ because to talk about hospitals, prisons, sports is to highlight to the general public that there just might be a problem with TWAW after all.

CassOle · 20/08/2025 08:46

BeLemonNow · 19/08/2025 23:34

Oh are we back to discussing penises? No? Oh nm.

So, a man photographs himself in a woman's refuge (because he says that he is a woman) and posts it on the internet for all to see, demonstrating exactly why his AGP self shouldn't be in a woman's refuge and how mad self-id is. Yet, somehow, the blame lies with Mumsnet when we discuss men like this.

Incidents that show exactly why 'gender identity' should not over-rule biological sex. Incidents that show exactly what Manfreglory wants us to stop objecting to (or we are essentially Xenophobic, or worse in Manfreglory's eyes) because men matter more than women. Then you chime in with what is essentially rule of Misogyny number 1: 'Women are responsible for what men do.'

Pray tell, how do we discuss the problems with self-ID if we can't be plain about what the results are and the types of men who will use it, which include men like the above? Should we pretend that there is no sexual element for any of these men? If I want to discuss intimate care for injured, ill, disabled or elderly women and how having a female carer is much safer due to the incidents of rape that can occur when male carers are used? Is that not allowed because a certain male appendage is implied to exist?

Should we only talk about kittens in the sex and gender forum? There is a sketch called 'Women Know Your Limits' that springs to mind.

Manfreglory · 20/08/2025 09:34

VimesandhisCardboardBoots · 18/08/2025 22:45

I don't want to take my mind off my penis. I quite like it, it brings me a lot of joy.

However one of the most important things penis owners need to learn at an early age is not to stick it where it's not wanted. Funnily enough the womens toilets is generally considered one of those places.

hold on: you're a man? isn't this a women's' space?

OP posts:
Alucard55 · 20/08/2025 09:37

Manfreglory · 20/08/2025 09:34

hold on: you're a man? isn't this a women's' space?

All the informative intelligent posts above and that's your comment.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 20/08/2025 09:39

Alucard55 · 20/08/2025 09:37

All the informative intelligent posts above and that's your comment.

When you haven't got any actual points to make...

Swipe left for the next trending thread