Single sex spaces

[piloswi]

I’m confused with single sex spaces and trans people and what people want.

My understanding is everyone must use the single sex space of their biological sex (I might be wrong). This is only spoken about in terms of trans women now having to use men’s toilets, etc. But this means trans men must use women’s toilets. So someone who looks like a man but biologically isn’t but mostly (imo) you can’t really tell with trans men whereas you often can with trans women.

Is this what the majority want? Surely if people are worried about ‘predatory men’ pretending to be a trans woman to use single sex spaces then they could equally claim to be a trans man as you can’t really ask them to prove it can you?

I guess I’m just wondering if I’m missing the point the point? Are the majority happy with this? I’ve seen posts of people being very happy with the ruling but only have spoken about trans women.

I don’t want this to be a trans bashing thread. Just would like to know what people would like to see as their ideal for single sex spaces while still respecting people

What is the purpose of this inserted cavity again?

There is NO purpose other than to be a fuckhole or to represent a fuckhole if it is even usable. Do you understand what we are saying? Or are you programmed to believe in falsehoods.

Just because a female person might have a similar process doesn’t make it a ‘vagina’ when inserted into male body. A female person’s reconstructive surgery is just that, replacing a body part. Not creating a false one. A female reconstruction has other body mechanisms to support it including a vulva and a cervix and a uterus etc.

You are really deep in philosophical theory if you believe that a female reconstructive surgery and an extreme body modification in a male body is the same.

It also is irrelevant to the topic of the thread. If a male person has extreme body modifications, they still should not be accessing female single sex provisions. And it also would be cruel to demand that any male who wanted that access needs to undergo such extreme body modifications.

No! Should be sufficient to mean they should not enter.

If you think fucking a hole that has to be dilated to keep it closing is the same as fucking a real vagina I can only assume you've never had sex

A vagina is a flexible, self-lubricating tube of muscle that links the uterus, via the cervix, to the outside world.

An inverted penis goes nowhere and does nothing.

Moob not moon.

...they're just trying to live their lives...

Was the 6'4" and very muscular trans woman wearing tiny yellow shorts, heels and a purple crop top who stood using the basin next to me in the ladies' toilets "just trying to live his life" or was he actually all about giving a big "fuck you" to the Supreme Court judgement and to any woman who didn't want him in their space?

He was the very embodiment of misogyny and male entitlement.

You cannot reasonably just redefine words to suit yourself. If I said that sulphuric acid is water, and offered you a glass of water, would you drink it?

I've seen. Sadly this is one of those things you can't unsee.

It’s not actually a vagina. It’s an inverted penis.

Extreme body modification does not change your sex.

No matter what the poor guy has had surgically removed/altered, he will still be male. People have had horns stitched into their foreheads. It doesn't make them the devil.

This is just deflection from the law which says female people are entitled to single sex services.

I don't know if you've seen a vagina after surgery, but unless something goes wrong it absolutely is indistinguishable. There is photo evidence on it. Can we just agree to disagree?

Its the use of words that has confused you.

A man isnt a woman because he calls himself one, and a penis isnt a vagina because someone says it is.

But thats irrelevant. When eddie izzards walking around town, obviously male. The shape of his penis isnt going to make him pass in a womens toilet.

It is remarkable that this discussion continues to take place... It is one of the simplest things imaginable:

• Born a boy - always a boy / man
• Born a girl - always a girl / woman

• Toilets - you use the one matching your birth sex - regardless of what you wear / what mutilating surgery has been done / what hormones have been taken
• The one exception is that there might be rare examples of someone having had so much surgery as to cause concern to others (e.g. woman trying to look like a man) in which case alternative provisions can be made

There you are - easy!

There have been all sorts of lies / claims / beliefs / misdirections / misconceptions spread about - but peel it back to the bare bones and you simply use the toilet matching your birth sex.

It is so simple that the average 2-3 year old knows what sex they are and knows which toilet to use - I find it difficult to believe that adults therefore don't know!

God, that is so massively insulting to women. Breathtakingly insulting.

No.

Because it is not a vagina.

What part of this do you not understand or try to understand?

If I make my dog look absolutely convincing to be a cat, will you accept that dog as a cat?

You seem deeply indoctrinated in the philosophical theory that says that if something is labelled as something, it must be considered that thing. Postmodernist theory.

No. It is completely irrelevant that plastic surgeons might do a convincing job. The male person with that inserted cavity is a male person still and that cavity is not a vagina in ANY way.

Do you understand the misogyny of describing that cavity as a vagina when that cavity really serves no purpose except as hole?

Vaginas are not ‘holes’, they serve quite a few purposes essential to life. A cavity inserted into a male body serves no purpose at all that is essential to life.

Has it occured to you that there are biological females that have a blind vagina? What are you saying is the purpose of a vagina on a female btw?

Transmen only become visible and cared about if they are being used as an argument to win support for transwomen.

The guidance basically states that there should be mixed sex provision AS WELL AS single sex provision. And that single sex toilets are not there for validation purposes they are there for single sex privacy and dignity.

This isn't hard, despite attempt to frame it as complex. It's faux confusion.

@piloswi I suggest that you read the Supreme Court ruling and the EHRC draft guidance, which explain very clearly why single-sex facilities must only be used by the biological sex for which they are intended, and also why - nevertheless - people of that sex who look like the opposite sex can legally be excluded. This (simple visual inspection) is how single-sex facilities always used to work, which is why we never required genital inspections and still don't.

EHRC emphasise that no-one should be left without access to facilities. My ideal would be ample single-sex multi-user provision, plus some single-user ambulant accessible provision for people that need it (not just trans, but people that need help from an opposite-sex companion, etc), but opinions vary.

Of course if someone thinks they pass, they might get away with using the wrong facilities, but they shouldn't try: they know what sex they are, and they can't be sure they do pass, given that those they encounter may well be pretending out of fear or politeness. Apart from being against equality law, it's just plain antisocial to risk frightening, disgusting or annoying other users, or making it so that religious woman have no access to the facilities at all, because of the risk of a man being present.

I've walked past dishevelled Special Brew-sodden tramps shouting more coherent arguments than this.

How did such shit non-logic hold such sway all these years? No wonder the Supreme Court decision was unanimous, with particular note to the clarity and precision of the FWS legal argument.

No.

Bingo.

I can guarantee that you know very little about the people on this thread. I have met several trans people. My own son is one of them, and I can assure you that I know him very well indeed. He is not the only trans person I am close to. Being trans does not make someone unable to have a negative impact on other people.

BINGO

I can't believe I missed this one.

You seem deeply indoctrinated in the philosophical theory that says that if something is labelled as something, it must be considered that thing. Postmodernist theory.

Exactly.

If we count the tail as a leg, how many legs does a dog have?

A dog has four legs. If you call the tail a leg that doesn't make it a leg.

Yes. I know there are female people with blind vaginas. Are you using their experience to silence people who are pointing out that a male person with a cavity inserted into their groin has not changed sex and should not be accessing female single sex spaces?

Their existence does not negate the purpose of a vagina. Or do you think a female person who has no uterus or cervix for any reason is no longer female and the equivalent of a male person who has a cavity inserted in their groin?

A female person with a vagina that does not attach to a cervix / uterus still has the body part their body was designed to have. That vagina is not tied to other body parts to keep it in place, is it? It is meant to be there. And I believe those female people don’t have to do a range of other things to keep that vagina healthy. That vagina’s health is still monitored by that female body.

No. A male person with an inserted cavity is not like a female person without a cervix / uterus.

This does not read like it was written by anyone who has encountered a vagina in real life.

This.
Fucking tedious nonsense that's thrown at women by those with zero coherent, factual arguments in an attempt to prove the impossible - that a man can magically become a woman via drugs and brutal cosmetic surgery.

What is the "purpose" of a vagina please?

Also there are biologically female people born with a blind vagina and no cervix or uterus. I'm assuming you're typing in the heat of something rather than being intentionally discriminatory to those with medical conditions that cause this and also require them to dilate etc.

What is this purpose you keep going on about?