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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #50

1000 replies

nauticant · 07/08/2025 21:44

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025
Thread 49: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5383443-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-49 31 July 2025 to 8 August 2025

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46
InterrobangsArePureBias · 16/08/2025 10:14

DrBlackbird · 16/08/2025 10:02

At my uni I’ve seen an ‘inclusive healthcare’ module being rolled out to medical students. All about vulnerable trans. It’ll be another generation of doctors trained to believe in this ideology. People who want to become doctors are immersed in a bekind culture so it will carry on with doctors not thinking they’re doing the right thing.

Likewise. Inclusive modules that don’t show any awareness of the hierarchy they have created and the groups they overlook.

Conxis · 16/08/2025 10:19

chilling19 · 16/08/2025 06:49

We will see more resistance as an extinction burst effect until they (and their insurers) finally wake up me thinks.

The “insurers” are the Scottish tax payers as the NHS in Scotland has a pooled self-insurance scheme.
But I hope Sandie gets a large payout as, let’s face it, she can never return to work there now! And I will be happy to pay my share as the larger the payout from the public purse the larger the outcry from the insurers public will be, the more SNP politicians will be held to account for promoting and encouraging this unlawful behaviour in Scotland’s NHS.
And there is an election in Scotland next year……..

DrBlackbird · 16/08/2025 17:39

InterrobangsArePureBias · 16/08/2025 10:14

Likewise. Inclusive modules that don’t show any awareness of the hierarchy they have created and the groups they overlook.

It crossed my mind to have a conversation with the woman running the module but our uni is especially big on inclusivity (apart from women) so it would likely fall on deaf ears. Plus, head and parapets and all that.

InterrobangsArePureBias · 18/08/2025 08:57

Archive because one day people will find this hard to believe.

https://archive.ph/6Crml

RiotAndAlarum · 18/08/2025 11:12

And here is the Mail on Sunday, which appears to have broken the story:

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scottish-mail-on-sunday/20250817/281560886884154?srsltid=AfmBOoqxs_T5SvdWeQPICQpfAAZN_ZdayOH-b1755yk_gWOZ1IFkwprm

(Edited to add post, as I pressed Enter too soon!)

RedNine · 18/08/2025 11:13

InterrobangsArePureBias · 18/08/2025 08:57

Archive because one day people will find this hard to believe.

https://archive.ph/6Crml

Edited

I can't believe that NHS Fife and NHS Scotland WANT a weekly stooshie with the press, yet here we are.

RiotAndAlarum · 18/08/2025 11:38

RedNine · 18/08/2025 11:13

I can't believe that NHS Fife and NHS Scotland WANT a weekly stooshie with the press, yet here we are.

I understand the temptation to cheat the FOI request, but putting this sort of thing in writing shows incredible complacency... and thank goodness for that in-house lawyer!

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 18/08/2025 11:43

RiotAndAlarum · 18/08/2025 11:12

And here is the Mail on Sunday, which appears to have broken the story:

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scottish-mail-on-sunday/20250817/281560886884154?srsltid=AfmBOoqxs_T5SvdWeQPICQpfAAZN_ZdayOH-b1755yk_gWOZ1IFkwprm

(Edited to add post, as I pressed Enter too soon!)

Edited

Interesting contrast in the images of DU and SP in that article

Times-are-a-changing

Edit: changed BU to DU per convention

myplace · 18/08/2025 11:56

David Hamilton must be gritting his teeth. And sharpening his pencils.

Have I missed anything since the last sessions? I had to pay attention to my real life day to day for a while, and have got behind. I want to be up to speed by Sept 1st!

BeLemonNow · 18/08/2025 12:08

It's kind of a good thing NHS Fife are so incompetent they put this kind of thing in writing. Like accidentally releasing the insults about the judge forcing them to release information.

I would guess those in charge of Freedom of Information Requests have no relevant training or knowledge of freedom of information requests. Judging by Isla. Ha.

Maybe someone should check all the medical professionals are qualified medical professionals checked by HR...just a thought...

SternJoyousBeev2 · 18/08/2025 12:48

Can NC use the EHRC letter to Fife, Fife admitting they have not conducted an Equality Impact Assessment and the news articles regarding FOIs in her submissions to the Panel?

Surely these all paint a picture of an organisation that has little to no interest in complying with the law? Even if they try the defence that they were following the same guidance as must other (captured) organisations they have no defence for ignoring the law now.

SidewaysOtter · 18/08/2025 13:18

RiotAndAlarum · 18/08/2025 11:38

I understand the temptation to cheat the FOI request, but putting this sort of thing in writing shows incredible complacency... and thank goodness for that in-house lawyer!

It doesn't help that not only do certain quarters think trans rights are more important than the law, but that they are being Brave Freedom Fighters by knowingly breeching the law in favour of trans rights.

See also: Palestine Action, Extinction Rebellion et al.

Lins77 · 18/08/2025 14:56

It's really bad. I work for a Scottish public body and have recently been handed an FOI request about related matters (sex/gender issues) as it touches (marginally) on my area of work. Can't imagine thinking it's ok to fudge it even if I wanted to - that's not going to end well.

TheAutumnCrow · 18/08/2025 15:50

RiotAndAlarum · 18/08/2025 11:12

And here is the Mail on Sunday, which appears to have broken the story:

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scottish-mail-on-sunday/20250817/281560886884154?srsltid=AfmBOoqxs_T5SvdWeQPICQpfAAZN_ZdayOH-b1755yk_gWOZ1IFkwprm

(Edited to add post, as I pressed Enter too soon!)

Edited

So one of the emerging good guys in this appalling narrative is Stefano Rinaldo, a lawyer with NHS Scotland? One to watch.

Lins77 · 18/08/2025 16:08

TheAutumnCrow · 18/08/2025 15:50

So one of the emerging good guys in this appalling narrative is Stefano Rinaldo, a lawyer with NHS Scotland? One to watch.

I hope he didn't actually say "statutatory requirements" though. 😬

RiotAndAlarum · 18/08/2025 19:22

Lins77 · 18/08/2025 14:56

It's really bad. I work for a Scottish public body and have recently been handed an FOI request about related matters (sex/gender issues) as it touches (marginally) on my area of work. Can't imagine thinking it's ok to fudge it even if I wanted to - that's not going to end well.

Thank you so much! ❤️❤️

Hoardasurass · 18/08/2025 19:57

BeLemonNow · 18/08/2025 12:08

It's kind of a good thing NHS Fife are so incompetent they put this kind of thing in writing. Like accidentally releasing the insults about the judge forcing them to release information.

I would guess those in charge of Freedom of Information Requests have no relevant training or knowledge of freedom of information requests. Judging by Isla. Ha.

Maybe someone should check all the medical professionals are qualified medical professionals checked by HR...just a thought...

This was NHS scotland not NHS Fife

INeedAPensieve · 18/08/2025 20:01

Lins77 · 18/08/2025 14:56

It's really bad. I work for a Scottish public body and have recently been handed an FOI request about related matters (sex/gender issues) as it touches (marginally) on my area of work. Can't imagine thinking it's ok to fudge it even if I wanted to - that's not going to end well.

Well I warned my work (also Scottish public sector) that their equality paper said gender instead of sex and the characteristic is sex and this has been confirmed by the highest court in the UK. I was told it was up to equality team and that the debate is toxic. Okay dokey then. I really hope someone does an FOI on our organisation but I actually really like the guys that work in that team and they don't have pronouns in their emails (like me, which is becoming a rapidly small number of people since marketing keep ramping up the pressure by changing email signature constantly with lots of requests to add pronouns). I would like them to get their bums handed to them about this. They are wilfully ignoring the law. The head of EDI team is a huge tra though so he thinks he's untouchable. Senior management do nothing. Had Comms recently about "pregnant people" on maternity leave, also about a menopause support group for "all genders and identities". Uhuh.

Lins77 · 18/08/2025 20:12

INeedAPensieve · 18/08/2025 20:01

Well I warned my work (also Scottish public sector) that their equality paper said gender instead of sex and the characteristic is sex and this has been confirmed by the highest court in the UK. I was told it was up to equality team and that the debate is toxic. Okay dokey then. I really hope someone does an FOI on our organisation but I actually really like the guys that work in that team and they don't have pronouns in their emails (like me, which is becoming a rapidly small number of people since marketing keep ramping up the pressure by changing email signature constantly with lots of requests to add pronouns). I would like them to get their bums handed to them about this. They are wilfully ignoring the law. The head of EDI team is a huge tra though so he thinks he's untouchable. Senior management do nothing. Had Comms recently about "pregnant people" on maternity leave, also about a menopause support group for "all genders and identities". Uhuh.

Ugh, how infuriating.

I'm glad to say pronoun madness has never really taken hold at my place. There are a few pronouns-in-signatures, but it's not widespread and has never been required or requested (and no senior people have them).

Our equalities team are actually quite good and there's a fair bit of stuff on sex and I'd say a proportionate amount on trans, i.e. a bit, occasionally.

NoWordForFluffy · 18/08/2025 20:33

Lins77 · 18/08/2025 20:12

Ugh, how infuriating.

I'm glad to say pronoun madness has never really taken hold at my place. There are a few pronouns-in-signatures, but it's not widespread and has never been required or requested (and no senior people have them).

Our equalities team are actually quite good and there's a fair bit of stuff on sex and I'd say a proportionate amount on trans, i.e. a bit, occasionally.

My firm is what I call 'woke light', in that we have a few Pride events, and a handful of people have pronouns in their signature. The latter is certainly not requested, however.

However, the trans policy still says that people should use the toilet of their gender. Once our whistleblower policy reappears online (I'm not sure when it vanished), I'm going to whistleblow about it being legally wrong. (It's not an issue that I've noticed on my day in the office, but that's not the point. There may be younger / less senior women than me affected on other days, and I need to make a stand for them.)

INeedAPensieve · 18/08/2025 22:28

Lins77 · 18/08/2025 20:12

Ugh, how infuriating.

I'm glad to say pronoun madness has never really taken hold at my place. There are a few pronouns-in-signatures, but it's not widespread and has never been required or requested (and no senior people have them).

Our equalities team are actually quite good and there's a fair bit of stuff on sex and I'd say a proportionate amount on trans, i.e. a bit, occasionally.

That's good @Lins77 ; it's a bit mad in our organisation right now. I've noticed it ramping up big style in the past few years, coincidentally (!?) since the head of EDI joined the organisation.

I think it's taken me by surprise as I'd always thought of my work colleagues as fairly sensible people. To be fair, most of the no nonsense people who've been there for years haven't changed their signatures to include pronouns or haven't taken the new progress pride lanyard that marketing keep handing to folk whenever in the office. There's a hell of a lot who have though and also a lot of young graduates as well. I think because it's so rife in universities and our organisation has a lot of partnership with universities it's kind of a given. Plus, as I said, the head of EDI being so full on with it all.

I was a bit disappointed though last week when I went into the office after a few weeks of holidays and a lot of my team have taken the lanyard. I probably should have expected it as my team is heavy with the pronouns but I'd hoped that was just a kind of unthinking adherence to the constant pressure to change email signature from marketing. I actually find it quite intimidating seeing the progress pride lanyard. I find it quite anti-gay; my lesbian friends hate that flag and I've been spat on going to a women's festival by people waving the flag.

Now I have to sit and stare at it in meetings round all my teammates' necks. Maybe I should pull a TRA move and say I feel "unsafe" and demand a support animal. Ha. It's just galling as I think it's a bit political and we should just be neutral as a public sector organisation and keep to a generic neutral staff lanyard. For example, I don't see marketing handing out any lanyards for disability awareness, women's rights, carers rights or age awareness etc. So why the focus on just that one?

Chersfrozenface · 19/08/2025 08:41

For example, I don't see marketing handing out any lanyards for disability awareness, women's rights, carers rights or age awareness etc. So why the focus on just that one?

There actually is a Disability Pride flag. Perhaps a poker-faced request to have Disability Pride lanyards made and distributed to show support for disabled people is in order.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #50
BezMills · 19/08/2025 11:22

In my place (blue chip engineering megacorp) the pronouning seems to be mainly the 'new in career' lot in their 20s and a couple of conspicuous higher-ups who (I guess) are doing it to show willingness and allyship rather than through any specific convictions.

The rest of us are just getting on with the big pile of engineering work and treating all colleagues with respect as normal etc etc

ThreeWordHarpy · 19/08/2025 11:56

In my global organisation it’s thankfully relatively light touch, with email signature guidance very much “if you wish to add pronouns here’s where you do it and please respect your colleagues choice either way”. There’s only a few that do. But then we have a huge proportion of our workforce and clients outside Europe and the USA, many in socially conservative countries and I think our leadership is relatively level headed about focusing on our services and avoiding anything political.

we still get internal comms in pride month etc, but our DEI organisation is relatively low key compared to other places I’ve worked.

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