NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025

Yes, it’s familiar. The poor woman and her family. Unfortunately there are so many stories like that.
There have been examples in uk schools recently in private toilet cubicles where pupils were undiscovered and by the time they were found cpr was unsuccessful. What is upsetting is that secondary schools and other venues like shopping centres have defibrillators so there’s an understanding that early attention can save lives. But you need to know as soon as possible.

On that sad note @Keeptoiletssafe I'm guessing British Heart Foundation has a policy unit as most large charities do -have you tried contacting them to get their support?

I'm on p14, apols if this has been posted. The latest Lesbian Project podcast discusses the Sandie Peggie case:

https://substack.com/@thelesbianprojectpod

Yes thank you, they are aware. As are the Stroke Association etc. I raised awareness at the consultation stage of Document T. I know at least one charity wrote in. However, looking at the analysis for the consultations my views and those of the charity were not mentioned.

Sorry to hear that, thanks for the updates though and good luck with this important cause.

Thank you. I will not derail this thread further after this however…

I am aware there will be many different people on this thread with different interests so I want to make the following points.
This toilet consultation a good example of what happens when you gather opinions and how it skews data:
https://www.gov.uk/government/calls-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence/outcome/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence-analysis-of-responses-received

I really hope the civil servants looking at this critically analysed the Stonewall report that 67% of all respondents referred to, in this ‘calls for evidence’ consultation. This Stonewall report highlighted where two women pushed a person out of toilets and two other people discussing how they were verbally abused for the toilets they were using.
79% of responses in the ‘calls for evidence’ consultation mentioned safety concerns for trans/non-binary people. Obviously safety for everyone is important but complete privacy in an enclosed cubicle is not the safe solution transactivist toilet designers think it is.

In contrast less than 1% of people in the ‘calls for evidence’ consultation, cited safety concerns for boys. From my data, boys have been abused in toilets eg. In big name high street supermarkets when mums have let them go in alone. There are public toilets that have been used as sites for organised sexual abuse of boys. There are girls/young women who have been led into or pushed back into private toilets in very public spaces. Safeguarding and complete privacy are not compatible.

This is why EHRC are right to say there should be exemptions for children going into single sex toilets with their opposite sex carers.

It’s also my worry that the EHRC will not be able to look past all the opinion and analyse the real health and safety reasons toilets were traditionally designed as they were over the years. They need to make sure privacy does not override health and safety. I hope they take guidance from the Health and Safety Executive and the HSE guide them correctly.

I am concerned that toilets need to be looked at much more carefully in terms of criminality, deaths and injury and a quick EHRC decision will cause overall harm if they override HSE and building regs. There’s so much as stake.

‘Anthropologists and sociologists should be infesting public toilets. There’s nothing else in human society quite like them. Not in society, not quite out of it. Needed but rarely demanded. A place where all sorts of human needs and habitats intersect: fear, disgust, conversation, grooming, sex. It’s an ambiguous space that is not quite in the public eye, though the public uses it. A place of refuge and sociability: of necessity and criminality.’
Rose George, ‘The Big Necessity’(2008)

Thank you @Keeptoiletssafe thats very enlightening and important and I’m grateful to you for highlighting it.

Safeguarding and complete privacy are not compatible.

I have noticed that the fully enclosed disabled toilet in a supermarket near me has a gap in the door so wide you can watch shoppers going about their business as you're doing yours. I'm hoping that it's less easy for those on the outside to see in.

After reading @Keeptoiletssafe 's posts I assume that gap is to enable the lock to be unlocked if necessary.

Here in the USA virtually all public toilets in newer buildings have that quarter inch gap either side of the door. It's a bit disquieting at first because yes, you can see people washing their hands and waiting outside, but tbh you really can't see in unless you put your eye to the gap and peer, and women really don't do that. I can imagine a voyeuristic man might.

American toilet cubicle design is very different to the UK.

Often the partitions do not reach the floor or ceiling. I'm tall-ish and can regularly see over the top of the partitions when standing.
Coupled with the gaps around the doors leaves very little privacy.
Slightly unsettling in a public loo but much worse when there are work colleagues outside
I had always assumed it was a round about way of reducing the time workers spend in the loo

No the side gaps have never been a feature of uk toilets. This is where design ideas get lost in translation from USA to the U.K.
The floor to door gaps are much bigger in the USA too @Britinme .

@NebulousSadTimes Is this the U.K.? I wonder if they have had specific problems as I haven’t seen this before.

I am talking about 150mm floor to door. Then a gap over the door to the ceiling. A door that rests in an open position is useful to ascertain who is about. How the door unlocks can be in various ways, depending on the manufacturer. It may be the lock (coin turn) or the hinge.

Currently the Department of Education recommend a maximum 5mm door gap for secondary schools. This isn’t big enough to see if the occupant is in danger. They have told me this is for privacy and do not hold risk assessments or equality impact assessments in their department. They say schools need to take 1974 Health and Safety regs into consideration when I asked about these for children with invisible disabilities and girls. This is a safeguarding concern as there are children with various health conditions that are more likely to collapse and need medical attention. For example in an average school 9 may have epilepsy, several will have diabetes, then there’s heart conditions and mental health conditions. Even Waterloo Road (BBC drama) did an episode with a girl collapsing in the school toilets due to endometriosis.

The privacy of school toilets is also a concern as an investigation by the BBC showed at least 1 rape per school day happens in school premises. Looking at schools that now have the newer style private toilets - sex, drugs and dirt are a reoccurring theme particularly if they are open to both sexes (yes that’s allowed too).

I’ve often read that about American loos. I’m sure it would prevent me from doing anything if someone was eyeballing me over door. <shudder>

I am not keen either!

In researching door gaps there are some very interesting factoids I have. It’s eye-opening how important they have been in lots of ways. Emily Thornberry will know!

I used to go and stay with a friend in her caravan when I was in my late 20s. The communal loos had wooden doors with a big gap between floor and door.

I was always amazed at the food I could consume over a week without have a 💩.

I’m so behind with these threads that I’ve missed the opportunity to comment on some of the issues as they occurred. I’m grateful for the commentary, comedy and informed insights and beyond grateful to SP for being brave enough to stand up for all of us needing single sex spaces. As others have said, all women are deserving of SSS even imperfect ones, and who among us is perfect anyway?

I strongly agree that this is as much about class as anything. The part-time night nurse vs the Dr with connections who was cosseted by senior staff who knew better but shamefully pretended they didn’t. Senior medics trained to think critically and challenge evidence, wanted an easy life and engaged in a witch hunt against goodie peggie’s observations rather than tell the truth about the Emperor’s clothes. I’d love to believe they will learn from this experience and become more open minded instead of paying lip service whilst closing ranks, but I won’t be holding my breath.

One thing I did want to pick up was about the post. I’ve not worked in any hospital where mail was opened in the postroom. Internal and external post is delivered to the department or person and opened by the designated person/s. Where someone is suspended their mail is usually managed by HR or their line manager. Personal mail would usually be posted on. I’m really struggling to make sense of a scenario where it would be opened by post room staff. It would be completely inappropriate for the post staff to even know about suspensions. Then again, with everything else we have learned about NHSF I perhaps shouldn’t be surprised.

Yes @Keeptoiletssafe , Scotland, I'll not say where exactly for obvious reasons. It'll probably be a while before I'm back in that area but I'll try to remember when I'm there and I'll go and investigate more.

New article in the Scotland section of the Times about the toll the trial takes on the family:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/c8283e70-efad-4b87-b4fe-24222e707394?shareToken=180d20ebc0f03edcb03a2b69d03512a9

Courtesy of moleatthedoor

Need to make that into a postcard to send to nhs Fife 😂

Sorry dont have time for these really long threads, but in case this hasn't been posted and if a duplicate not really sorry as it is a good story (IMO):

NHS Fife bosses forced to handle hundreds of cards supporting trans row nurse Sandie Peggie
The mail has been sent to the hospital she was suspended from
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/15164406/nhs-bosses-hundreds-cards-trans-row-peggie/

The ham sandwich and irn bru! 😂

That’s a pretty dope lunch, though, to be fair!

Thank you for this. I was particularly struck by this paragraph:

Hanvey said that moment he met Peggie and her mother was forever etched in his mind. “They appeared in my office as frightened rabbits and the world seemed against them,” he said. “It was abundantly clear to me that Sandie had done nothing wrong and I resolved to do everything I could to help.

I've never measured the gaps above and below the doors in typical US toilets that you might find in the mall, but I'm 5'7" and I wouldn't be able to see over the top even if I stood on tiptoe. Of course there are plenty of women taller than me, but it's never struck me as a problem in all the years I've used them.

Is that shadowy Mythical Pete in the background? 😭