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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49

1000 replies

nauticant · 31/07/2025 13:22

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025

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32
RethinkingLife · 01/08/2025 11:44

myplace · 01/08/2025 11:18

I’ve been reflecting after the shit show end of the last thread.

I think it’s really important to allow people to hold a different opinion with you- whatever it may be.

If you shut down conversations because you believe the other person isn’t entitled to a particular opinion, you aren’t ever going to know what the alternative perspective is.

The ‘no debate’ thing didn’t start with Trans, it’s just a recent and extreme variation.

If you want to understand the 80%, you have to allow them to have thoughts you consider to be wrong and distasteful.

Shutting down a conversation because there’s insufficient condemnation of racism, or homophobia, for example doesn’t move anyone forward.

I’ve seen concern about surrogacy dismissed as homophobia.
Concern about the veil dismissed as racism.
And of concern about single sex spaces dismissed as homophobia. With a side order of racism.

I’m surrounded by lovely right thinking people who aren’t open to a conversation about politics or current issues because everything is racist/bigoted/whatever. We did manage to agree that every source of information is biased though.

I think it’s been salutary to see people we love and respect write us off as appalling bigots.

We need to consider who we are also writing off!

I have just seen the thread about Jimmy Doyle’s piece in The Times which contains the sentiment in this tweet describing

the spectacle of this nation’s intellectual elite enforcing moral auto-lobotomy as a condition of entry to polite society

archive Times

https://archive.ph/efES3

https://x.com/jdoyleDoyle1/status/1944737166862512258

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5383911-jimmy-doyle-in-the-times?

https://x.com/jdoyleDoyle1/status/1944737166862512258

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 01/08/2025 12:00

NoBinturongsHereMate · 01/08/2025 10:15

That's the position Michael Foran, and many other experienced legal commentators take - wrong comparator, and therefore wrong judgement.

I expect 'wrong comparator' arguments to arise less post-SC ruling, but in any case they can lead to the same destination as the 'right' comparator. V was disadvantaged relative both to same-sex 'cis' people and all opposite-sex people, irrespective of his actual sex, legal or otherwise. Because he had self-excluded from the male CR, but was being bullied in the female CR, he had nowhere to change.

Peregrina · 01/08/2025 12:03

Because he had self-excluded from the male CR, but was being bullied in the female CR, he had nowhere to change.

Why was self - exclusion an excuse/reason? If he had tried the men's CR and had been bullied there, then yes, he would have had nowhere to change - unless they rustled up a cupboard for him.

Arran2024 · 01/08/2025 12:14

Jane Russell has lost again https://x.com/legalfeminist/status/1951222983118221394

There is a separate thread about the case

https://x.com/legalfeminist/status/1951222983118221394

ContemporaneouslyNebulousNotes · 01/08/2025 12:18

Arran2024 · 01/08/2025 12:14

Jane Russell has lost again https://x.com/legalfeminist/status/1951222983118221394

There is a separate thread about the case

Oh was that case one of hers as well? 😂

This is excellent news!

myplace · 01/08/2025 12:21

ContemporaneouslyNebulousNotes · 01/08/2025 11:41

Depends... which side did you end up on in the giant couscous tasty / terrifying schism? 😉

I didn’t have time to ask for any recipes 🤣😅

All are welcome- giant or normal!

Peregrina · 01/08/2025 12:24

Oh was that case one of hers as well?

A quick reading of the links shown on the other thread says that our old 'friend' Robin White was involved.

TheAutumnCrow · 01/08/2025 12:25

Helleofabore · 01/08/2025 08:53

I wondered this too. He was very clear that he was a biological female. Using the same deconstructive method as McKinnon / Ivy and other activists.

Or it was a defensive move to pre-empt NC’s questions. Meaning NC then had to work through it with LC and take up time.

And it’s pointless now, since the Supreme Court’s recent ruling makes it quite clear that ‘sex’ is ‘biological sex at birth’.

There's no getting round that.

I was so relieved to see those words in the SC ruling. DP wondered what was going on because one minute I was chatting about putting shopping away, and the next minute my phone beeped followed by a few tears.

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 01/08/2025 12:25

Peregrina · 01/08/2025 12:03

Because he had self-excluded from the male CR, but was being bullied in the female CR, he had nowhere to change.

Why was self - exclusion an excuse/reason? If he had tried the men's CR and had been bullied there, then yes, he would have had nowhere to change - unless they rustled up a cupboard for him.

Even post-SC ruling, the establishment is still treating trans people as legitimately traumatised by being treated as their birth sex - hence the inclusion of 'third spaces' in the EHRC draft guidance (though they might as well not have bothered, given how othering and transphobic such spaces are🙄). We have a long road yet to travel.

lcakethereforeIam · 01/08/2025 12:26

Sorry if this point is being laboured now. Although I would say separation and segregation are synonyms. To me saying 'sex separation' is weird,. I cannot put my finger on why but it reads differently from 'sex segregation'. 'Separation by sex' reads better but is a bit of a mouthful and, when typing as you're thinking, is not the form of words that I, at least, would use. I'd have to go back and edit, which is a pain to do but probably something I should do more frequently 😃

Eta had giant couscous as part of my tea last . It was lovely. It was a substitute for fregola another, virtually identical, pasta.

Peregrina · 01/08/2025 12:28

We have a long road yet to travel.

To horribly mix metaphors, the tide has definitely turned and is on the way out.
(But I suppose that will mean that it eventually comes back in again!)

WandaSiri · 01/08/2025 12:40

I hate giant couscous.

That said, V should not have been permitted to use the women's changing room - that is unequivocal guidance from the EHRC in line with the SC judgement. What provision providers make for people who do not wish to use the facilities for their sex, depends on the exact circumstances, but single sex facilities have to be single sex.

V's choices should have been the men's changing room or some other space. Not women's changing room.

ETA: I think unisex third spaces are optional, and single sex changing rooms or toilets are the default and preferred solution.. Hopefully the High Court will address this point from GLP.

ContemporaneouslyNebulousNotes · 01/08/2025 12:43

Peregrina · 01/08/2025 12:28

We have a long road yet to travel.

To horribly mix metaphors, the tide has definitely turned and is on the way out.
(But I suppose that will mean that it eventually comes back in again!)

It does feel like things are gaining momentum now which is great!

But this whole fiasco has made me realise that even things we thought were settled, like women's rights, are something that could, terrifyingly easily, be taken away again. I never thought for a second that this would or could happen. I was quite comfortable with what I though were my inalienable rights. It's been a depressing, frustrating, heart breaking, white-hot anger generating time finding out just how wrong I was.

I'm so grateful to all the women and men who've fought for us to reassert our rights, including Sandie Peggie.

I think you are right, the tide may come back in again, and women could find themselves fighting for their rights again. Hopefully, if it does come back around again, this period of time will serve as a warning to women of the future, forewarned is forearmed and all that?

TheAutumnCrow · 01/08/2025 12:47

ContemporaneouslyNebulousNotes · 01/08/2025 10:38

Would it matter?

I think her backer probably wanted to know is Sandie Peggie a woman? And is Dr Upton a man? But that'll be it, there was nothing else left to know.

If anything, the fact that she's less than perfect is perfect to my mind.

Women's rights are for all women, not just the ones we agree with.

Agreed.

This is about sex class. It’s a political argument. It’s not the ‘Miss Congeniality’ round at a beauty pageant.

Largesso · 01/08/2025 12:48

Arran2024 · 01/08/2025 12:14

Jane Russell has lost again https://x.com/legalfeminist/status/1951222983118221394

There is a separate thread about the case

The judge is NOT impressed by JR submission:

NebulousPhoneNotes · 01/08/2025 12:50

myplace · 01/08/2025 12:21

I didn’t have time to ask for any recipes 🤣😅

All are welcome- giant or normal!

Even if the giant couscous are identifying as normal? Wink

lcakethereforeIam · 01/08/2025 12:51

If I understood correctly the SC judgement was applied in the Haynes pool case even though the trial concluded before the judgement came out. As it should imo as the SC confirmed that was and always had been the law.

I know it's Scotland so different legal system but this must bode well for SP's case.

Helleofabore · 01/08/2025 12:52

Even better with the Pool judgement was the section covering paragraphs 61 - 124.

jrlevins.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/08/K01CT207-judgment-1-8-25-handed-down.pdf

Summed up in these paragraphs:

The consequences of FWS
15 On 16 April 2025, five days after the trial concluded, the Supreme Court gave judgment in For Women Scotland Ltd v The Scottish Ministers [2025] UKSC 16. It is the Defendants’ position that in the light of FWS the claim must be dismissed. The Claimant initially accepted that was so but then, with the Defendants’ consent and my permission, reversed her position and filed amended submissions arguing that the claim should still succeed.

16 I have decided that the Claimant’s original concession was correct. The claim cannot survive the outcome of FWS. I will explain why that is at paragraphs 61 to 124.

17 My conclusion means it is not necessary to decide whether the defences under s195 EA 2010 or
paragraph 28 of Schedule 3 to EA 2010 pool are made out. However, the question of whether pool is a gender-affected activity was thoroughly explored at the trial with the aid of expert evidence, and I will set out my views about it. I will also deal briefly with paragraph 28 of Schedule 3.

I imagine that this will sting JR and her insistence that FWS is not applicable to NHS Fife.

prh47bridge · 01/08/2025 12:54

ContemporaneouslyNebulousNotes · 01/08/2025 12:43

It does feel like things are gaining momentum now which is great!

But this whole fiasco has made me realise that even things we thought were settled, like women's rights, are something that could, terrifyingly easily, be taken away again. I never thought for a second that this would or could happen. I was quite comfortable with what I though were my inalienable rights. It's been a depressing, frustrating, heart breaking, white-hot anger generating time finding out just how wrong I was.

I'm so grateful to all the women and men who've fought for us to reassert our rights, including Sandie Peggie.

I think you are right, the tide may come back in again, and women could find themselves fighting for their rights again. Hopefully, if it does come back around again, this period of time will serve as a warning to women of the future, forewarned is forearmed and all that?

All rights are fragile. They will only continue as long as we are prepared to defend them, not just for ourselves but for everyone, including those we don't like. Authoritarians always start by taking away rights from unpopular sections of society - criminals, illegal immigrants, etc. Those pushing an agenda that damages the rights of one group will always start with the least popular and least visible members of the group, hence TRAs targeting getting TWs into women's prisons, for example.

Whenever the government wants to take more power for itself, which always means taking some away from us, the question to ask is not, "am I happy for this government to have this power". It is "would I be happy for {insert any politician you despise} to have this power".

Whenever anyone tries to take away the rights of an unpopular minority, ask yourself who will be targeted for removal of these rights next.

And whenever someone tries to shut down debate on a subject, make sure you challenge them and keep the debate open, even if you agree with them. "No debate" is always a cover for shutting down legitimate opposition.

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 01/08/2025 12:56

thoughtsonlondon · 01/08/2025 11:31

She will then mash together Croft v Royal Mail and Garçon and Nicot v France, plus the EHRC guidance for service providers which was not updated post-Haldane: et voila! Employers have a discretion to allow legal males to use female facilities, provided they meet some criterion or other set by the employer.

I'm not familiar with all the cases, but NHS Fife don't seem to have set any criteria except self ID - how does Croft help her there?

I think this may be where battle lines will be drawn: should they have defined criteria/done an impact assessment/got legal advice/taken more notice of complaints instead of dismissing them as transphobia?

I'm not wholly optimistic, given the TWAW sea in which everyone was swimming. But they handled the complaint against SP so abysmally they should lose anyway.

PS

Corbett/Bellinger = unambiguous AMAB are male.

W v W = Corbett test inapplicable to certain DSDs - decide sex on balance of factors including psychological.

Croft = post-op male transsexual employee can use ladies' room (obiter).

G&N v FR = but sterilisation cannot be made a condition of trans rights!

EHRC guidance was still to go by gender identity, irrespective of GRC status, pending their attempts to get the GRA disapplied to EA (now moot 😊)

PPS I seem to have caused unutterable confusion by mentioning (the irrelevant to this case) W v W. But I was so excited to find it! Maybe I will take it to the DSD thread.....

viques · 01/08/2025 12:59

Peregrina · 01/08/2025 12:28

We have a long road yet to travel.

To horribly mix metaphors, the tide has definitely turned and is on the way out.
(But I suppose that will mean that it eventually comes back in again!)

If it is a normal tide then it can be dealt with. The problem over the last few years is that a destructive tsunami destroyed logic and reason and left a wake of devastation and chaos that has taken a long time to rebuild. Let’s hope that the rebuilding that is now taking place is future proof, and built on deep seated legal and scientific foundations not vague feelings, unreasonable demands and spite.

SionnachRuadh · 01/08/2025 13:00

I liked this bit:

97 I am not sure whether the Claimant’s case is now that I should interpret the Act in a way that is contrary to FWS, or whether instead it is that I can distinguish FWS while adopting the Claimant’s interpretation of the EA 2010 (whatever that interpretation may be). That makes it difficult for me to engage with or respond to the submission. I can only say that the County Court is bound to follow a Supreme Court authority, that I must therefore follow FWS, and that I cannot see any way to distinguish it.

I think that's the equivalent of the judge taking a big red pen and writing what are you even trying to argue here on your homework. And it wasn't even GLP litigation.

WandaSiri · 01/08/2025 13:00

It's women's rights that always seem to be optional. The UK is a democracy which has never yet (quite) succumbed to authoritarianism and yet women's rights and freedoms have come under attack. Our rights are uniquely fragile partly because people in general don't pay enough attention or they're in a boiled frog scenario, but mainly because the world as a whole is horribly misogynistic and women's rights (and indeed women themselves) just don't matter as much as men's rights (or men). If this horrible ideology had gone unchecked, we could have had a situation like in Canada or Australia - where men's sex-based rights are unaffected, but women's are trashed.

Edited to expand point

RethinkingLife · 01/08/2025 13:02

I disagree that the tide is turning. Look at all the employers offering support and succour to some groups of employees but not others. They are digging in to draw this out.

I would like to be very wrong. At some point I hope that I will still be fit enough and have good enough large joint mobility to allow me to perform a jig of thankfulness that I am wrong. I shall also buy everyone a Tunnocks of atonement.

WandaSiri · 01/08/2025 13:03

SionnachRuadh · 01/08/2025 13:00

I liked this bit:

97 I am not sure whether the Claimant’s case is now that I should interpret the Act in a way that is contrary to FWS, or whether instead it is that I can distinguish FWS while adopting the Claimant’s interpretation of the EA 2010 (whatever that interpretation may be). That makes it difficult for me to engage with or respond to the submission. I can only say that the County Court is bound to follow a Supreme Court authority, that I must therefore follow FWS, and that I cannot see any way to distinguish it.

I think that's the equivalent of the judge taking a big red pen and writing what are you even trying to argue here on your homework. And it wasn't even GLP litigation.

And it wasn't even GLP litigation.

I think RMW is one of the lawyers who advise or act for GLP, so...😁

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