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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49

1000 replies

nauticant · 31/07/2025 13:22

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
nauticant · 01/08/2025 10:15

Back to the point, it crossed my mind ages ago that, her backer probably checked Sandie out including her phone and social media presence before investing so much money 💰 into the case. Don't want too many skeletons falling out the cupboard.

I think that NC was aware that SP had some non-approved views, eg being a fan of Trump, but had no idea of the contents of the Benidorm chat. As I understand things, the two witnesses related to that chat had been agreed, but it was only later, possibly last Friday, that NC became aware of the evidence that was going to be part of their testimony and things really kicked off on Monday. I'd expect that any mystery backer got a similarly very late and nasty surprise.

OP posts:
NoBinturongsHereMate · 01/08/2025 10:15

StellaAndCrow · 01/08/2025 10:12

Yes, surely they were using the wrong comparator here?
i.e. for a trans-identifying man, the appropriate comparator, in law, would be a non-transgender man (a "cis" man) in their terms.

That's the position Michael Foran, and many other experienced legal commentators take - wrong comparator, and therefore wrong judgement.

ContemporaneouslyNebulousNotes · 01/08/2025 10:22

Lougle · 01/08/2025 09:47

You can't argue against sex segregation if you conflate sex with gender, then claim that you are the same gender so all part of the group. To argue against sex segregation, you have to acknowledge that there are two discrete sexes and the failure to do so is what gets us into this mess in the first place.

Did you mean to quote me @Lougle?

Needspaceforlego · 01/08/2025 10:29

nauticant · 01/08/2025 10:15

Back to the point, it crossed my mind ages ago that, her backer probably checked Sandie out including her phone and social media presence before investing so much money 💰 into the case. Don't want too many skeletons falling out the cupboard.

I think that NC was aware that SP had some non-approved views, eg being a fan of Trump, but had no idea of the contents of the Benidorm chat. As I understand things, the two witnesses related to that chat had been agreed, but it was only later, possibly last Friday, that NC became aware of the evidence that was going to be part of their testimony and things really kicked off on Monday. I'd expect that any mystery backer got a similarly very late and nasty surprise.

Being a Trump supporter isn't even that controversial, millions of Americans voted for him, he's also pushed Trans back a bit from sports etc.
I still laugh at the headline for his first period in office "Aberdeen Business Man becomes President"

What I meant shes not a member of any small minded political parties or controversial organisations.

I think the lawyers had probably already been through that group chat long before now.

mrshoho · 01/08/2025 10:30

Another2Cats · 01/08/2025 08:45

Thanks for that. It was interesting reading the judgment.

V was employed as a Catering Assistant in 2020, V only wanted to work for a maximum of 16 hours per week but took a full time job.

Notice was sent out to staff that a transwoman was going to start working there and that they would be using a shower cubicle in the female changing room.

The Trust also provided EDI "training" to staff. The Tribunal noted that:

"Some expressed concerns, mainly female members of staff worried about sharing the ladies changing room with a transgender woman"

(but, of course, no account was taken of those concerns)

Then, at one point, V came across a note that had been placed in V's locker in the women's changing room that said (I've redacted part of it as I don't know what MN's rules are on this)

"Get out you ty freak"

On another occasion, while V was getting changed they overheard a conversation as follows:

Voice one: I am sick to death of this bloke with a dick pretending to be a woman, who doesn’t even dress like a girl and has facial hair, that thing may rape me and we can drive it out of the department and maybe find a suitable leper colony for it.

Voice two: I agree but we need to do something but what can we do when management are sucking up to that thing.

V then took time off work due to stress and there was a whole "attendance management" process that they went through.

V returned to work and, on one occasion, while working made a comment to a line manager that V was very hot and:

"At that point the Claimant told her she was so hot she had taken her underwear off, and made a wringing motion with her hands."

V denied having said this but the Tribunal found that V did say this.

V then went off sick again and on return faced a disciplinary process.

There was then an interview and V was asked about this removing the underwear incident. There had also been a report of about V being naked from the waist down in the changing room.

However, the interviewer then went further and asked if V wore or changed underwear at work and whether V was ever inappropriately dressed at work.

The Tribunal said:

"A concern about the Claimant’s state of undress in the changing rooms was likely to be connected with the fact that she is a transgender woman. This was a communal changing room with a shower cubicle. It did not seem to the Tribunal likely that there would have been a concern about a cisgender woman in a state of undress while changing in such a changing room."

It went on to say:

"The Tribunal therefore concluded that Mrs Hawkshaw asked the questions because of a concern that the Claimant as a transgender woman might be in a state of undress in the female changing room. That was because of gender reassignment. Mrs Hawkshaw would not have asked the questions of a cisgender woman"

V was awarded £7,000 for injury to feelings along with £810 interest
.

That was in 2022. Frankly, I think if that employment tribunal was taking place today then the outcome would be very different indeed.

Edited

Thanks for digging this out. I hadn't read the tribunal report until now but I remember at the time thinking how could this be right. V appeared to be trouble from the start and as a qualified lawyer represented himself at the tribunal. I wonder how many TIM were emboldened to demand to be in female spaces following this result?

ContemporaneouslyNebulousNotes · 01/08/2025 10:38

Needspaceforlego · 01/08/2025 08:40

Never heard of 'completely turkey' but that general vibe. Idiot, fruit loop, nutter, nut job, headcase.

Back to the point, it crossed my mind ages ago that, her backer probably checked Sandie out including her phone and social media presence before investing so much money 💰 into the case. Don't want too many skeletons falling out the cupboard.

Keeping in mind her amazing backer isn't just backing Sandie Peggie, they are backing her to fight for all women's rights across the UK with a potential dominoe effect elsewhere in the world.

Someone suggested about 10 threads ago the team had potentially been on the lookout for a case to back and I think they were probably right. What a case to back!

Would it matter?

I think her backer probably wanted to know is Sandie Peggie a woman? And is Dr Upton a man? But that'll be it, there was nothing else left to know.

If anything, the fact that she's less than perfect is perfect to my mind.

Women's rights are for all women, not just the ones we agree with.

mrshoho · 01/08/2025 10:52

ContemporaneouslyNebulousNotes · 01/08/2025 10:38

Would it matter?

I think her backer probably wanted to know is Sandie Peggie a woman? And is Dr Upton a man? But that'll be it, there was nothing else left to know.

If anything, the fact that she's less than perfect is perfect to my mind.

Women's rights are for all women, not just the ones we agree with.

Very well said. TRAs use any opportunity to attempt to divide women on these issues. Look how KJK has been torn to pieces and anyone supporting her smeared as being racist/bigoted. Look how TRAs portrayed women in prisons as not worthy of the right to protection.

ContemporaneouslyNebulousNotes · 01/08/2025 10:54

mrshoho · 01/08/2025 10:52

Very well said. TRAs use any opportunity to attempt to divide women on these issues. Look how KJK has been torn to pieces and anyone supporting her smeared as being racist/bigoted. Look how TRAs portrayed women in prisons as not worthy of the right to protection.

Thank you, and yes exactly!

I don't mean to be rude at all to @Needspaceforlego so sorry if that was a bit blunt.

SionnachRuadh · 01/08/2025 11:05

Needspaceforlego · 01/08/2025 10:29

Being a Trump supporter isn't even that controversial, millions of Americans voted for him, he's also pushed Trans back a bit from sports etc.
I still laugh at the headline for his first period in office "Aberdeen Business Man becomes President"

What I meant shes not a member of any small minded political parties or controversial organisations.

I think the lawyers had probably already been through that group chat long before now.

I think the difference here is between a view that's actually fringe and one that's common among the public but disapproved by the political-media class. If you got all your news from the BBC you would think Keir Starmer is a hugely popular PM and Nigel Farage is basically Skeletor. You would not think that Reform have led every poll for months and Starmer's approval rating is in the toilet.

Similar things apply to Trump. And it's possible to like some things he's doing while having lots of other reservations about him.

When it comes to immigration, this is one of those 80-20 issues and the Gary Linekers of this world speak for the 20% while believing they speak for the 80%.

We might be happy or unhappy about these things, but that's how it is.

My assumption about the group chat is that this was the background to all the vague gossip about SP being racist and homophobic - that LN and probably one or two others who she thought were close friends were spreading it about that "this is what she's really like". But nobody had proof and LN, having left the chat, only had a few screenshots. SP at some point handed over the whole chat to her team.

Not that the screenshots weren't terrible, but if you have the context of one really bad instance of shitposting in seven years, and some of this friendship group turning out to be treacherous Mean Girls, that does defuse it quite a bit.

Signalbox · 01/08/2025 11:06

Needspaceforlego · 01/08/2025 07:50

Could he be reported for voyeurism or sexual harassment or stalking especially with his notes on his phone saying when Sandie waited outside the changing room.

If this court find he has sexually harassed SP or that he was dishonest he could be reported to the GMC on that basis. Dishonesty in particular is taken very seriously by the regulators.

NImumconfused · 01/08/2025 11:06

SqueakyDinosaur · 01/08/2025 09:13

IB did refer to an initiative called IIRC Once For Scotland, which seems to be an attempt at developing NHS policies centrally.

Certainly in NI the approach is for the HSC Business Services Organisation to develop the policies and then the Trusts and other health related bodies adopt them, so they're all the same.

StellaAndCrow · 01/08/2025 11:09

Needspaceforlego · 01/08/2025 09:37

She did giving her some credit but surely that's something that should have been done decades ago that all the bits in the NHS should be on the same hymn sheet with some serious thought behind it.

Thinking more widely SNP have pushed the same TWAW policies everywhere, police, schools, NHS, council care, women were just expected to get on with it.

Fife could consider themselves unfortunate that they are the NHS trust who ended up with Upton. Who was absolutely out to pick a fight with someone and unfortunately for him he picked wee Sondie

You ever heard that saying "you never know who your picking a fight with?"

Yes, and this case needed someone who WOULD fight, and not back down with the first accusation of "not being quite nice". Bloody well done Sandie.

SionnachRuadh · 01/08/2025 11:15

Absolutely. These cases are not going to require women who play nice for the court of public opinion, they'll need women who are prepared to be thrawn about it.

As a bonus it completely enrages the TRAs when a woman digs her heels in instead of performing niceness.

myplace · 01/08/2025 11:18

SionnachRuadh · 01/08/2025 11:05

I think the difference here is between a view that's actually fringe and one that's common among the public but disapproved by the political-media class. If you got all your news from the BBC you would think Keir Starmer is a hugely popular PM and Nigel Farage is basically Skeletor. You would not think that Reform have led every poll for months and Starmer's approval rating is in the toilet.

Similar things apply to Trump. And it's possible to like some things he's doing while having lots of other reservations about him.

When it comes to immigration, this is one of those 80-20 issues and the Gary Linekers of this world speak for the 20% while believing they speak for the 80%.

We might be happy or unhappy about these things, but that's how it is.

My assumption about the group chat is that this was the background to all the vague gossip about SP being racist and homophobic - that LN and probably one or two others who she thought were close friends were spreading it about that "this is what she's really like". But nobody had proof and LN, having left the chat, only had a few screenshots. SP at some point handed over the whole chat to her team.

Not that the screenshots weren't terrible, but if you have the context of one really bad instance of shitposting in seven years, and some of this friendship group turning out to be treacherous Mean Girls, that does defuse it quite a bit.

I’ve been reflecting after the shit show end of the last thread.

I think it’s really important to allow people to hold a different opinion with you- whatever it may be.

If you shut down conversations because you believe the other person isn’t entitled to a particular opinion, you aren’t ever going to know what the alternative perspective is.

The ‘no debate’ thing didn’t start with Trans, it’s just a recent and extreme variation.

If you want to understand the 80%, you have to allow them to have thoughts you consider to be wrong and distasteful.

Shutting down a conversation because there’s insufficient condemnation of racism, or homophobia, for example doesn’t move anyone forward.

I’ve seen concern about surrogacy dismissed as homophobia.
Concern about the veil dismissed as racism.
And of concern about single sex spaces dismissed as homophobia. With a side order of racism.

I’m surrounded by lovely right thinking people who aren’t open to a conversation about politics or current issues because everything is racist/bigoted/whatever. We did manage to agree that every source of information is biased though.

I think it’s been salutary to see people we love and respect write us off as appalling bigots.

We need to consider who we are also writing off!

myplace · 01/08/2025 11:20

<holds breath wondering if I’m now persona non grata>

mrshoho · 01/08/2025 11:24

myplace · 01/08/2025 11:20

<holds breath wondering if I’m now persona non grata>

Not at all. You've expressed very well the way politics and social themes are often prevented from being debated. 'NO debate' will never work as we've seen.

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 01/08/2025 11:27

NoBinturongsHereMate · 01/08/2025 08:20

I do not know why SPs team did not put up an expert witness to show how biological sex actually works because it is extremely relevant.

Unnecessary. There is already settled case law setting out the legal definition of 'biological sex'. The relevant cases were referenced in the SC judgement, IIRC - it's Corbett v Corbett and another one that I can't currently remember but it's a name beginning with B (that one was mentioned in one of Michael Foran's explainers for this case, and deals with intersex conditions as well as the standard situation).

[Edited because I really shouldn't try typing before I've got my contact lenses in.]

Edited

As a PP has said, that was Bellinger v Bellinger, which also concerned a male transsexual with no ambiguity as to birth sex.

Whilst outside the scope of this thread, PP might be interested in W v W, cited in the Bellinger case.

https://vlex.co.uk/vid/w-v-w-nullity-804694637

The respondent, who probably had a form of PAIS, and had chosen to have feminising treatments, was found to be legally female on what can only be described as pragmatic grounds (it being impossible to apply the Corbett v Corbett test). This accords with my own view that people with DSDs that cause gonad-genital incongruence should have the right to choose.

None of which is relevant to the other 99.98% of people, including Dr Upton.

I think JR will not argue that DU is 'really' female in any meaningful sense. I think she will say that the relevant SSE set out in EA2010 Schedule 3 is specific to service providers, not employers, that employers have a liability defence under the Act if following another law or regulation (this is EHRC advice, although I can't find a statutory basis), that the 1992 WR apply, and therefore the whole situation is outwith the Act.

She will then mash together Croft v Royal Mail and Garçon and Nicot v France, plus the EHRC guidance for service providers which was not updated post-Haldane: et voila! Employers have a discretion to allow legal males to use female facilities, provided they meet some criterion or other set by the employer. Thus bypassing the whole question of DU's sex.

W v W (Nullity)

W v. W Nullity, filed at England & Wales

https://vlex.co.uk/vid/w-v-w-nullity-804694637

thoughtsonlondon · 01/08/2025 11:31

She will then mash together Croft v Royal Mail and Garçon and Nicot v France, plus the EHRC guidance for service providers which was not updated post-Haldane: et voila! Employers have a discretion to allow legal males to use female facilities, provided they meet some criterion or other set by the employer.

I'm not familiar with all the cases, but NHS Fife don't seem to have set any criteria except self ID - how does Croft help her there?

WandaSiri · 01/08/2025 11:36

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 01/08/2025 11:27

As a PP has said, that was Bellinger v Bellinger, which also concerned a male transsexual with no ambiguity as to birth sex.

Whilst outside the scope of this thread, PP might be interested in W v W, cited in the Bellinger case.

https://vlex.co.uk/vid/w-v-w-nullity-804694637

The respondent, who probably had a form of PAIS, and had chosen to have feminising treatments, was found to be legally female on what can only be described as pragmatic grounds (it being impossible to apply the Corbett v Corbett test). This accords with my own view that people with DSDs that cause gonad-genital incongruence should have the right to choose.

None of which is relevant to the other 99.98% of people, including Dr Upton.

I think JR will not argue that DU is 'really' female in any meaningful sense. I think she will say that the relevant SSE set out in EA2010 Schedule 3 is specific to service providers, not employers, that employers have a liability defence under the Act if following another law or regulation (this is EHRC advice, although I can't find a statutory basis), that the 1992 WR apply, and therefore the whole situation is outwith the Act.

She will then mash together Croft v Royal Mail and Garçon and Nicot v France, plus the EHRC guidance for service providers which was not updated post-Haldane: et voila! Employers have a discretion to allow legal males to use female facilities, provided they meet some criterion or other set by the employer. Thus bypassing the whole question of DU's sex.

Deleted because I think I might have misunderstood ill-tempered!
😁

KnottyAuty · 01/08/2025 11:37

Gabcsika · 01/08/2025 07:00

Catching up with the thread but Im not so sure.

The judge took a very keen interest when DU started wanging on about "hormonal sex, chromosomal sex, psychological sex blah blah blah" It was a pong list. I watched that part live and he was scribbling furiously.

I didn't manage to get log ins for the delayed part ofnthe tribunal, but from following this thread the same thing happened when MC (I think) gave evidence.

I am inclined to think JR will argue via flapdoodle, that therefore DU is not male and male biological sex doesn't apply to him (because hormones or psychology or something), and biological sex wasnt defined int the FWS judgement (a lot.of TRAs are already saying this)

I am also inclined to think the Judge will wrongly agree to this. I get a sinking feeling - there was something about his manner.

I do not know why SPs team did not put up an expert witness to show how biological sex actually works because it is extremely relevant.

Thankfully Fife called Maggie Currar and JR - in an attempt to filibuster we think - stupidly asked lots of chromosomal questions. It was another dumb move by JR because I think she might have been hoping to muddy the waters but NC knew more than MC about the different DSDs…

Which allowed NC to hammer out any possible misinterpretations in cross examination. So hopefully that nonsense has been headed off at the pass

Peregrina · 01/08/2025 11:39

His counsel argued that the appellant's psychology should be taken into account in deciding whether he was female or male and this was rejected by the HoL and the strictly biological definition of sex confirmed.

You would hope now that with a better understanding of DSD's the person concerned would have been properly assessed at birth.

WandaSiri · 01/08/2025 11:40

Peregrina · 01/08/2025 11:39

His counsel argued that the appellant's psychology should be taken into account in deciding whether he was female or male and this was rejected by the HoL and the strictly biological definition of sex confirmed.

You would hope now that with a better understanding of DSD's the person concerned would have been properly assessed at birth.

Bellinger didn't have a DSD.

ContemporaneouslyNebulousNotes · 01/08/2025 11:41

myplace · 01/08/2025 11:20

<holds breath wondering if I’m now persona non grata>

Depends... which side did you end up on in the giant couscous tasty / terrifying schism? 😉

SionnachRuadh · 01/08/2025 11:41

mrshoho · 01/08/2025 11:24

Not at all. You've expressed very well the way politics and social themes are often prevented from being debated. 'NO debate' will never work as we've seen.

The other thing about 'no debate' is that it puts the worst people in charge.

When Trump was elected, I think the response of lots of normie Democrats was to say, 'I'm not happy about this, but we had a scandal prone candidate and unappealing policies, maybe we should get to work having better candidates and better policies next time.'

But about three million of them went completely insane. I can quantify that with confidence because it was essentially the people who watch Stephen Colbert. They were a minority, but because they were overrepresented in the politics-media-academic complex, they convinced themselves they spoke for the masses.

It's only now, almost ten years later, that Gavin Newsom and Rahm Emanuel, both of whom will run in 2028, are tentatively saying, maybe we should appeal to the median voter instead of our loudest activists.

We're currently seeing a really absurd spat around Sydney Sweeney's jeans advert. If you don't know the background of this, Sydney Sweeney is a hot young actress who looks good in jeans. The advert has a strapline about her having 'good genes', which is a witty play on words.

Inevitably, some people have decided that this is a nazi eugenicist dogwhistle. It seems to originate from the proverbial 12 psychos on Bluesky, but the problem is that the centre left, with its culture of no debate, has no resources to stand up to the 12 psychos on Bluesky, so you get Good Morning America running a segment about this pseudo-controversy and the Atlantic running a chinstroking article complaining about Sweeney normalising the conservative agenda of allowing straight men to like hot women. Apparently Sweeney is 'right coded' because she's hot and straight men like her.

The centre left is going to condemn itself to losing unless it can generate leaders who can say this is completely stupid and let's ignore the 12 psychos on Bluesky.

The trans community of course has its own equivalent of the 12 psychos on Bluesky. I think it's a common danger, and that's why it's valuable to have spaces like FWR.

Peregrina · 01/08/2025 11:42

Bellinger didn't have a DSD.

I was referring to the other case of W v. W where one of the people involved did have a DSD. It can't be an easy position to be in, and I find it offensive for men identifying as trans to drag such people in.

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