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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

1000 replies

nauticant · 29/07/2025 17:54

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

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30
FannyCann · 30/07/2025 22:04

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PennyAnnLane · 30/07/2025 22:11

moto748e · 30/07/2025 20:33

Isn't that the point where the liberal "dress how you want; present how you want" dictum comes up against the "woman-face" argument?

You can wear what you want and present as you want, but that doesn’t mean that I and many other people won’t think you’re a weirdo if you’re a man wearing a bra and skirt, the same as I’d think you were a weirdo if you wore Victorian suits or Viking outfits day in day out.

Harassedevictee · 30/07/2025 22:14

Angelabdc · 30/07/2025 21:50

Can someone help me understand something about SP's suspension that I've not seen discussed? As a former public sector employee I was involved tangentially in a number of misconduct issues. Part of that process was to have someone in line management appointed as a support to the person under investigation and to provide pastoral care for them. They would not otherwise be involved in the investigation, but may attend hearings at the person's request. I've not seen any mention of someone appointed by NHS Fife in that role. I would not necessarily expect them to be a witness, but I would expect the support person to have been referred to by Fife as evidence that they tried to mitigate the impact of suspension and at least had some care for her wellbeing.

I don’t recall anyone being appointed. To be honest the way NHSF dealt with the suspension I would not be surprised if they gave any thought to SP.

CapeGooseberry · 30/07/2025 22:14

PennyAnnLane · 30/07/2025 22:11

You can wear what you want and present as you want, but that doesn’t mean that I and many other people won’t think you’re a weirdo if you’re a man wearing a bra and skirt, the same as I’d think you were a weirdo if you wore Victorian suits or Viking outfits day in day out.

‘Wear what you want’ has never been publically acceptable though - you must not offend public decency, and in workplaces you must generally present a professional image. Dresses are very often fetish-wear for men.

Needspaceforlego · 30/07/2025 22:16

@Angelabdc
I've not seen anything to indicate Sandie had any pastoral care. The suspension doesn't appear to have been done following any sort of procedure or process.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 30/07/2025 22:20

BeLemonNow · 30/07/2025 09:53

@Cailleach1 Check out the tribunal tweets yesterday, Sandie didn't deny she personally had said she wanted to post bacon though a new mosque, rather she said she didn't recall.

You really don't know if she was free from any racism in real life, any sort of discrimination and racist attitude is against the NMC Code of Conduct.

I would be cautious about what Tribunal Tweets recorded. They do not claim to tweet exactly what the barristers, judge and witnesses said - in practice there are gaps, sometimes when they weren't able to hear clearly, and they abbreviate and sometimes paraphrase what was actually said. As an overview, they are excellent, but on detail they are really not reliable, and that applies to journalists and other observers too.

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 30/07/2025 22:24

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/07/2025 14:21

Given the abusive post you made to women here on an earlier thread, you’ve got quite the brass neck thinking anyone here is hanging on for your important take on anything.

Oh you're right, this was the poster who's abusive post was removed.

@Tangfastic71 did you report your own post? I think it was a shame it was removed, I thought it was quite educational.

FWIW women's rights are not only for the "good" women, they are for all women.

mrshoho · 30/07/2025 22:26

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Bloody hell. Is this confirmed to be his partner?

RedNine · 30/07/2025 22:30

Tangfastic71 · 30/07/2025 18:44

Calling us handmaidens is rude. I’ve fought for decades for women…in an actual court…not behind a screen…you know nothing about me.
i didn’t once say I don’t care about the people who have been abused or raped by those 79 trans women. It’s not a black and white issue. I can also care about the 100s of thousand of trans women who are abused and attacked. I can care more about issues that directly affect more women. I can choose to focus my efforts where they are most beneficial.
Toilet use isnt that place.
I think you can probably all see that you just bully people away when there’s a really good opportunity to learn from each other.
It descends into attack.
It’s clear that the echo chamber is what you prefer but I suspect from the amount of likes my posts have, some of you at least are uncomfortable with SP, and uncomfortable with the way some of you behave from behind your screens

Hellllooo <waves>

How do you tell the women (old fashioned cunty types) from the transwomen (natal males who say they are women)?

GailBlancheViola · 30/07/2025 22:32

FWIW women's rights are not only for the "good" women, they are for all women.

Exactly.

And justice is not only for the pure and nice and those whose opinions we share, it is for everyone, hence why the statue of Justice is blindfolded.

People on the above type of purity spirals really must be not very bright if they cannot envisage what would be unleashed if rights and justice were only for those who fit a particular criteria of good and worthiness. And they are suposed to be the liberal, progressive, tolerant nice ones? Give me strength.

ThatCyanCat · 30/07/2025 22:38

If the TRAs think SP loses her rights because of the racist jokes, I can't wait to hear what they think should happen with those trans identified men who are guilty of all sorts of sexual and violent crime.

WearyAuldWumman · 30/07/2025 22:48

mrshoho · 30/07/2025 22:26

Bloody hell. Is this confirmed to be his partner?

Mr Malky usually knows her stuff.

Needspaceforlego · 30/07/2025 22:53

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Jesus!

Does that mean Jamie Doyle is gay too?
Is that partly why he was so unsupportive to Sandie?

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 30/07/2025 22:58

@Tangfastic71 it's also not homophobic to object to a male heterosexual in female single sex spaces.

That was a transparent attempt to force team actual homophobia which LGB people experience (often at the hands of the T ideology) with the lawful exclusion of males from female single sex spaces.

They are not the same thing. If you are confused, I can help you, don't worry. It's just three simple points so not hard to remember

  1. Homophobia = bad, unnecessary, unlawful

  2. males in female single sex spaces = bad, unnecessary, unlawful

  3. Women's rights = good, important, necessary, lawful

HTH

ETA: changed exemption to exclusion - brain fart!

mrshoho · 30/07/2025 22:58

I don't think being gay is the issue. More the fact that his alleged partner was convicted of being a paedophile and struck of as a nurse by the NMC!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/07/2025 23:04

ThatCyanCat · 30/07/2025 22:38

If the TRAs think SP loses her rights because of the racist jokes, I can't wait to hear what they think should happen with those trans identified men who are guilty of all sorts of sexual and violent crime.

And in fact the ones who carry “protest” signs threatening to kill women and like social media posts threatening to torture and rape us.

Cailleach1 · 30/07/2025 23:05

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That is just awful. It says that Ian MacPhail admitted to having 1,300 child abuse images, including babies being sexually assaulted by adult males. Which he shared online with others.

MacPhail was put on the sex offenders register, and contacted the NMC himself.

Excerpt from the article:

=============
“But shockingly, the pervert told the nursing watchdog that he believed he should be able to return to work in light of the coronavirus pandemic.”

“However, the NMC found that his fitness to practise was severely impaired given the charges.”

“In their decision notice, they said: “The panel took account of the fact that Mr Macphail’s actions did not amount to actual physical harm to the patients in his care.”

==============

Well, now. And women are awful for being creeped out by men in places where they are undressing or otherwise vulnerable. To push back against a situation that made them uncomfortable and which technically and practically would provide opportunity for any man to commit voyeurism/ peeping or exposure/flashing. All a man had to say, was ‘I’m a lady too’.

Puts into perspective the lack of awareness of that witness who was basically admonishing Sandie that a man in the women’s changing room was fine as they were all DBS checked. That Ian MacPhail nurse who was sharing child sexual abuse is a perfect illustration of how someone can pass the DBS, but still be a sexual pervert because their perversion just hasn’t been found or exposed yet. For the 10 years he was accumulating 1,300 images of young boys (including babies) being brutalised by adult men, Ian MacPhail would have appeared to be fine according to his DBS check.

Edited to put the name of the nurse with the child abuse images in the first line.

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Tangfastic71 · 30/07/2025 23:05

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 30/07/2025 22:24

Oh you're right, this was the poster who's abusive post was removed.

@Tangfastic71 did you report your own post? I think it was a shame it was removed, I thought it was quite educational.

FWIW women's rights are not only for the "good" women, they are for all women.

Why would I report my own post 🤣
FWIW trans rights are human rights

lcakethereforeIam · 30/07/2025 23:08

No more, no less.

BriceNobeslovesMurielHeslop · 30/07/2025 23:08

Tangfastic71 · 30/07/2025 23:05

Why would I report my own post 🤣
FWIW trans rights are human rights

What rights do Trans people not have in the UK?

Cailleach1 · 30/07/2025 23:08

Don’t know why the Covid article attached.

Enough4me · 30/07/2025 23:08

Tangfastic71 · 30/07/2025 23:05

Why would I report my own post 🤣
FWIW trans rights are human rights

Human rights:
Males have rights to male facilities and females have rights to female facilities, everyone is male or female...don't you agree?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/07/2025 23:10

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Wow.

Tangfastic71 · 30/07/2025 23:11

RedNine · 30/07/2025 22:30

Hellllooo <waves>

How do you tell the women (old fashioned cunty types) from the transwomen (natal males who say they are women)?

Honestly I have no idea what you’re talking about. I mean, I’ve tried, but this paragraph makes no sense to me at all

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/07/2025 23:11

Tangfastic71 · 30/07/2025 23:05

Why would I report my own post 🤣
FWIW trans rights are human rights

Women’s rights are human rights.

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