NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

Now it's different. People now know she's a racist and people from foreign countries or certain religions may now take issue with being treated by her.

Not actually the question I asked.

Do you think it’s ethical to mock or celebrate young women dying of cancer @Christinapple?

As her views have never impacted her work I doubt there’s anything they can do. Let’s face it the entire Benidorm group fell into the same category and they were all named What are they going to do, sack them all…have no A&E staff.

You may have a right to chose the sex of your doctor but I think that’s it unless they actually give you a reason at the time for refusal

@Christinapple suggest you go back over the TTs a lot of what you’ve just accused Sandie of wasn’t her at all.

Facts and perspective are everything

I’m amazed there’s little talk of relevant issues to the case

• a doctor changing the ‘evidence’ on his so called contemporaneous notes to clearly add weight to his issue with a Sandie
• a doctor making trouble about an elderly patient calling him sony
• a doctor keeping notes about his colleagues from day one in the department
• a male doctor not removing himself from a single sex changing room when he was making a female nurse uncomfortable by his presence
• a male doctor that didn’t seek clarification that all the females he’d be undressing with were happy with that
• a male doctor that said he’d treat a female patient even if she’d asked for a female doctor for intimate examinations and care
• a doctor who doesn’t believe in biological sex
• a doctor who doesn’t know how to determine sex at birth
• an inept hospital with no procedures to protect staff and a toxic atmosphere of fear

Sandie is he one taking nhsFife and Dr Upton to court
Not the other way round

Thank you so much for that last paragraph. SP did so well with her warts & all last word. Rough edges, sure, but a reflective statement of where she is now. There may be things to talk about going forward, but today she is the herald, & the message is no men in womens spaces.

Oh dear Chris, you seem to have made a lot of factual errors in that post.

I've gone through and pointed them out for you one by one, hope you find it informative.

1) SP hatefully threatened a mosque

One witness for NHS Fife & Dr Upton's side stated that Sandi Peggie said she wanted to post bacon through their letterbox. That witness has shown herself to not be credible, to possibly to have a personal agenda / vendetta against Sandi Peggie.

She did not report the comment at the time, nor was she particularly clear with her memory of the alleged incident.

The bacon through the letterbox comment was instead attributed to a male paramedic later in the tribunal.

Who ever said it, it was a horrible thing to have said, but saying and doing are different things.

Point 1 is not relevant to the tribunal.

2) laughed at large numbers of people dying in a foreign tragedy

She shared a meme about the tragic floods in Pakistan. Others in the group chat also laughed including the witness from point 1 above. This is horrible, but no one in the group chat reported it until last week(?).

Point 2 is not relevant to the tribunal.

3) calls LGBT people "weirdo" and "it"

Sandi Peggie has admitted she called Dr Upton "weirdo".

What she did not do, was call LGB people "weirdo" or make a generalisation about people with trans identities.

She did not call Dr Upton "it", that was someone else.

Point 3 is not relevant to the tribunal.

From TT this afternoon:
JR Reported you asked for pic of weirdo Beth. Insulting. Derogatory?
SP Yes
JR It means not normal but us. But weird.
SP Y
JR Calling DU weirdo chimes with what LN heard you say at lunch.
JR You said it at the lunch.
SP DOn't think so.
JR And FW said
SP Didn't say
JR Are you sure.
SP Only thing discussing at lunch was c CR.
JR You think DU is a weirdo
SP No. Looks strange cos obviously a men who wants to be in women's clothing
JR Aren't strange and weirdo the same?
SP Weirdo not derogatory

JR [reads] inc G. "omg, it was on about pronouns" That's DU. Inhumanising
SP Wasn't me that said it.
JR Asking you if agree calling someone it robs them of humanity
SP Don't mean to offend anyone. Don't speak like that in from of people.
JR You've referred to DU at it.
JR as it. At the lunch.
SP No
JR Are LN and FW lying about that.
SP Yes.

4) and admits to using hateful racial slurs.

She admits to referring to people / shops / takeaway places of Pakistani and Chinese heritage by the shortened terms which a lot of people here have agreed are racist.

Within context, use of these terms are still common in her area, and there is no evidence or indication of Sandi Peggie feeling "hate" when she has used those terms.

Point 4 is not relevant to the tribunal.

5) My own point, and not one of Chris's

Sandi Peggie has had no complaints of racism over the course of a 30 year career.

We have heard from people who have had experience of Sandi Peggie as a nurse, and so far it's been nothing but positive feedback.

Point 5 is not relevant to the tribunal.

Lastly, I'm going to repost @DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus's post from earlier, because it seems we need the reminder again!

Seems like Andrea Dworkin's wise words are necessary again:

"Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore. It doesn't matter who the individual women are."

Women do not have to be paragons of virtue in order to have rights and protections. If anyone thinks that only virtuous women should be supported then they are not even an "itty bitty" feminist (to misquote Mary Daly).

Thank you!

This! ⬆

Although (sorry) I disagree with this point

• a male doctor that didn’t seek clarification that all the females he’d be undressing with were happy with that

But only because it wouldn't matter if they all were happy with him being there. He has no right to be there, and no woman can consent for all women, not even a group of women can consent for all women.

Wrote a Song for Sandie ❤️

🥳 The Ballad of Sandie Peggie! 🥳
(YouTube is playing silly buggers and it is stuck uploading so only on X for the mo).

https://x.com/POWLizPanton/status/1950370938890887302

(Based on the Ballad of Davy Crockett if it sounds familiar 🤭 )

Bugger! Forgot to include lyrics!

{t:Ballad Of Sandie Peggie, The}
{key: G}

{c:VERSE 1}
[G] Born on a mountain top in [C] Scotland [G]free,
Hatiest [G]state in the [A7] land of the [D7] free.
[G] Raised in the [G7] woods on - [C] Irn Bru and [A7] tea
[D7] Killed her a haggis when [D7]she was only [G] three.
[G] Sandie, [C] Sandie [G] Peggie, [D] Queen of the [D7] Fife fron-[G]tier.

{c:VERSE 2}

[G] Fought single handed through the [C] Gender [G] War,
Til' the [G] creeps were whipped and [A7] peace was in [D7] store,
[G]While she was [G7] handling this [C] risky [A7] chore,
[D7] made herself a legend forever[G] more.
[G] Sandie, [C] Sandie [G] Peggie, [D]the woman[D7] don't know [G] fear.

{np}
{c:VERSE 3}

[G] She went to the Court and [C] served a [G] spell,
Fixin' up [G]HR in the [A7] NHS as [D7] well,
[G] she took over [G7] Holyrood so [C] I hear [A7] tell
[D7] and kicked out the balls of DEI [G] hell.
[G] Sandie, [C] Sandie [G] Peggie, [D] seeing her [D7] duty [G] clear.

{c:VERSE 4}

[G] When she come home, her [C] witness [G] done,
why the [G] justice march had [A7] just be-[D7]gun,
so she [G] packed her [G7] gear and her [C] chewie [A7] gum
and [D7] lit out a grinnin' to follow the [G] sun.
[G] Sandie, [C] Sandie [G] Peggie, a [D] leader, a [D7] pio-[G]neer.

[G] Sandie, [C] Sandie [G] Peggie, [D] Queen of the [D7] Fife fron-[G]tier.

Ukulele song in key of G by Liz Panton, 29 July 2025
Based on The Ballad of Davy Crockett by Burns & Blackburn 1954

Long time lurker here.I’ve been following the Sandie Peggie tribunal since the beginning, including the last two days. Here are my thoughts – apart from the very obvious and utterly appalling way that NHS Fife and Dr. Upton have treated her, she is amazing.

• Sandie is a hero. Her actions of sticking her head above the parapet and standing up for the rights of all women, while putting her family in the spotlight to do so, were incredibly brave. Further, these actions likely disproportionately benefit women of colour, including those in the Pakistani community, who, depending on their religion, may not be able to change with males even if, on the extreme off chance, they personally did not otherwise object. She never flinched and never stopped even though her white female colleagues said they were “totally fine” with changing with males. She didn’t flinch when those white female colleagues absolutely witch-hunted her for standing up for all women. Her actions speak to her commitment to justice for all, regardless of race.
• Those who say that Sandie re-posting racist jokes means that no matter her actions she is somehow beyond the pale appear to have not given much thought to actions and outcomes, rather than words, that support actual justice. I find this mindset, frankly, self-aggrandizing and completely unhelpful to solving society’s problems. It appears to me to be a mindset that says “if someone holds thoughts I believe are ist or phobic, even if they risk their lives to pull someone of that ist or phobe off the train tracks, I will still find them wanting.” I really cannot respect that mindset, and do not believe it can ever lead to improvements in real social justice. I also find the courage and abilities of someone who so focuses on words but disregards deeds to be extremely unhelpful to the furtherance of a just society.
• There has been an argument that Sandie should somehow receive less compensation because she re-posted racist jokes. Bit of a problem with that. NHS Fife did not know she had done so prior to this tribunal, and therefore could not possibly have based her suspension on that. Even if they had known, NHS Fife could never have provided any evidence of actual racial discriminatory behaviour. Sandie had a completely unblemished 30 year record. It is crystal clear from the evidence available to NHS Fife at the time that she was suspended and discriminated against because she refused to change in front of a man. Full stop.

Bottom line, apart from all of the above, I find myself, after a multi-year up and down journey, absolutely fed up to the back teeth of the idea that people who mouth the right au fait words are somehow better than those whose actual actions bring about greater justice. I can’t be having with that.

No complaints in 30 years of nursing speaks for itself. Given the stress of the job and how irritating the general public can be, I am in awe of her professional record.
And her guts to stand up for women's rights, knowing her privacy and personal life would be scrutinised are to be admired.
Go Sandie!

Would you do that after waiting for eight hours in A&E? I rather bleed to death here on the trolley than being seen by nurse Peggie? Seriously?
I'm from a "foreign country" albeit white and I really think some people underestimate how much casual racism you hear (and not only from white or British people) when people aren't censoring themselves, after a bit too much to drink, or when they think nobody outside their group is listening or understands their language. If you don't want to be treated, taught, served by anyone who is not as pure as the driven snow you'll be in trouble.

Trans ideology has taken a free ride of being associated with and tagged onto other civil rights movements, such as gay liberation, feminism and anti racism, even though it is of a fundamentally different category.

One of the easiest ways to slander someone who will not accept that a man is a woman or vice versa is to associate them with other social justice crimes. This is all the counsel for Fife/Dr Upton has at the end of the day...because the arguments in favour of biological unreality and fantasy make believe fall flat and look utterly ridiculous on examination.....as we have witnessed these last couple of weeks.

….not to mention that if you’re a patient being treated by LN there’s every chance your name and personal medical info will be shared over a group chat! If anything, the whole case just demonstrates what an entirely disfunctional place NHS Fife are. It’s not called special measures in Scotland (brain fog!), but whatever is the Scottish equivalent needs to be introduced in Fife. They’ve demonstrated they are completely disfunctional at all levels - whether that’s patient confidentiality among nursing staff, racism in group chats among nursing staff, an inability to recruit people appropriate to the jobs they’re paid handsomely to do, consultants who don’t know the difference between men and women, trainee doctors who think it’s acceptable to complain about elderly dementia patients, a leadership and comms team who think it ok to release press statements during legal proceedings, an HR dept who don’t know about the 1992 Workplace Regs……….in summary, they’re a danger to themselves and each other and need some drastic changes which they’re undoubtedly not capable of reflecting upon and introducing themselves.

Given your assessement you may now also understand why a woman might not want to be examined by a male, let alone share an intimate space with a man who clearly has no respect for women or their dignity.

Indeed, and how many men do we hear refer to women as bitches, sluts, slags and slappers etc?

It's clearly a fact that Fife NHS did not take all of their equalities responsibilities into account in an equal way. There had been no assessemnts of the numbers of, and requirements of staff with different protected categories...namely Sex, Religion and Ethnicity.

'Gender' was treated as the most important equality and Dr Upton was given special treatment and consideration; breaking normal rules, regulations and procedures to accommodate his every whim.

Most of the senior staff rallied around him and condemned SP right from the start...though it is also clear that she was not the only woman with concerns about a man being the the female changing area.

For someone not to accept the impossible and to recognise the reality of sex was to be bigoted in the view of the righteous...and anything that could be found to back up claims of bigotry would be utilised.

It transpired that not all that claimed moral purity were quite as pure as they liked to portray.

We’re not quite at the point at which we’re punished for our thoughts, are we?

iF SP has treated all patients professionally for 30 years, she cannot be treating people of different ethnicities differently.

I have, in the past, been a thief.
Last week, and the week before, I committed fraud.
I’d still like to get changed in a SSS please

My take on what has happened in this tribunal is that ALL the TRAs and the followers of GI ideology have on their side is trickery and smear campaigns.

They have no facts to back up the desire for men to be in women’s spaces so they resort to the use of DSDs, twist language around to confuse others, and hurl insults willy nilly.

They are prepared to say anything to tear down anyone who says no to them.

I have enjoyed the camaraderie on these threads but even that has been affected by all the mud slinging and gleeful celebrations when Sandie has been shown to be less than perfect.

As someone else said, if her private messages are fair game why is it only one way? I think an analysis of DU’s phone would be enlightening.

I hope Sandie is ok.

Anyway, thanks to Nauticant, Bez and others for the updates over the last couple of weeks and see you in September!

He can believe what he likes it doesn’t make it true. He’s a man and the fact he’s shown no ‘personal depravity’ is irrelevant, he shouldn’t be in the FCR. I think you’re missing the point of why women want completely separate rooms to change in, not separate cubicles, as that would make it a mixed sex space. He doesn’t get to set the rules about what women want.

I’m a similar age to SP and from Scotland. Chinese restaurants were routinely called ‘Ch*nkies’ when I was growing up, and the N word was used in playground rhymes.

however, things have changed a lot since then. I wouldn’t dream of using either term now. SP must have had EDI training etc and so should have thought about these issues in the past 40 years…

But there’s something really distasteful about a friendship group looking back through messages for 8 years to find jokes that show that SP is racist. She must be wondering who she can trust.

Interruptaron incoming.