NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

I didn't get the impression that Fife think there is an issue with the culture bar her, and there clearly is.

Going back to thread 46:

Wasitabadger · Today 09:42

Not meaning to derail the thread. There are obviously lots of comments about FEMINISM. Can we possibly remind ourselves that Feminism was started by WHITE MIDDLE CLASS WOMEN. They ignored the working class servants, the black and ethnic minorities.

I wish people would stop repeating this myth, which seems designed to undermine feminism as a concept - and to entirely ignore the existence of feminiam outside the West.

It's true that middle and upper class women (a demographic that was in the West primarily white) had the most resources (time, money, social clout) to devote to writing, speaking and campaigning - their voices were therefore most prominent. But there were plenty of women of all colours and social classes involved in the fight. For example Annie Kennie and Minnie Baldock - founders of the first London branch of the WSPU were both factory workers, while over in the USA Harriet Tubman was a prominent campaigner for women's rights as well as for the abolition of slavery. And even the 'WHITE MIDDLE CLASS WOMEN' frequently focused on the problems of women who were unlike them - campaigning for better hours and conditions for factory workers and servants, for education of working class girls, for the rights of female prisoners (with the work needed on that now, have we forgotten Elizabeth Fry?).

Feminism is for all women, and all types of women have fought for it. Please don't perpetuate the erasure of those who had less privilege. They were also there from the start.

Tbf DU/KS/IB definitely can’t handle the truth 😅

Well obviously - Fife are defending a legal claim against her, of course they will make out she’s the sole issue to limit legal liability.

But internally, everyone in that group chat will be under scrutiny, plus this isn’t a good look for the management teams involved.

Yes, it's appalling that it took SP upsetting a straight, white man for anyone to care about her supposed racism

She would have been an absolute mare in any of their (Bumpa-led?) diversity awareness training sessions.

Which, given NHS Fife's priorities, chances are this training would have focused entirely only the trans issue and completely ignored the other protected characteristics and forms of diversity.

I thought that this was before the investigation, when Dr Upton had arrived and already been using the f CR.

I thought it sounded like they were discussing it amongst themselves at like the reception desk or something, rather than Sandi Peggie specifically seeking people out after the investigation had started?

He was named yesterday, and today SP was specifically asked and she was under oath to tell the whole truth.

It often does take a male, usually white but not always, to take exception to something for change to happen.

Am thinking of all the accusations and rumours swirling around Bill Cosby for years but it took an actual (black in this case) MALE comedian to stand in front of an audience and call him out before the allegations were taken seriously.

Yeah, the latter parts of the day obviously didn't reflect at all well on SP.

But what's that old quote from George Bernard Shaw: "All Progress Depends on the Unreasonable Man".

SP is obviously someone with no filter [whatsoever], someone who'll happily speak out without considering social conventions or the potential impact of her words on others, who might say things that are rude, inappropriate, or simply not thought through...

As with the emperor's new clothes, maybe it isn't always the smartest person in the room who's best placed to point out the obvious?

I suppose it's completely beyond the realms of all possibility that NHS Fife engineered a confrontation between the hospital's token trans doctor and its gobby nurse with dubious views whose cards they had marked?

Not knowing, of course, how the whole thing would blow up in everyone's faces.

Q: I’m trying to catch up but I’m still unsure why SP personal conversations and chats are relevant to the case?

PP are now saying that she would have been a nightmare to manage, and they can see why Fife would wanted her managed out.

Were there instances of her being racist in her professional capacity? I’m not sure how private conversations with “friends” translates to mean she was difficult to manage/nightmare in diversity training etc unless I’ve missed something?

And queer, which was extremely offensive in my youth is now happily used by people who deny that it is offensive.

This was my thought, the majority of women would either just wait outside the changing room with blood running down their leg or change with him in there and complain privately to friends and family but otherwise put up and shut up or confront him and then when they got suspended offer to resign in return for a good reference and go and work elsewhere, it takes someone bloody minded to go to a tribunal, and that person is going to be the person who is a bit gobby.

I’m surprised at how SP’s case has torpedoed in the space of 2 days. On Friday, the tribunal were left with the impression that DU had modified notes provided as evidence. SP was in an incredibly strong position.

Yesterday 2 of SP’s friends exposed her… an unusual development. SP’s other friend who was going to support her, withdrew from giving evidence as a witness.

Then today SP herself let everyone down with what she said. I must say, I am familiar with ETs and never have I come across a claimant behaving in this manner. I am very, very curious to see what the judge makes of this in their final decision. I understand the racism is tangential to her claims, but I think there’s enough evidence on the balance of probabilities that her behaviour was problematic and influenced the proceedings. The gossip about her was well known and proven to be true. Bizarre turn of events.

To what purpose/end?
This is not good publicity for NHSF mangement. None of them whatever they feel about gender will be celebrating this tribunal.

Sandie responded honestly rather than evasively or dishonestly to questions today. She didn’t try to give false apologies or lie to make herself look better to the online mob (yes, even us).

I can’t say that about many of the witnesses on Dr. Upton’s side.

I know who I believe.

Yeah, this. We don't have to agree with SP's taste or judgement in sharing sick, racist, disaster memes to get a shock reaction. But she did only share them with a tiny group of people she trusted as friends. LN brought them to the attention of the wider public. Nice one Lindsey. 👏🏻

There is so much I don’t understand.

How a white bloke in a dress was tiptoed around and encouraged and conspired with to make up accusations against a nurse of 30yrs good standing.

How a group of people could engineer the suspension of SP despite advice from HR that it shouldn’t happen.

How NHSF is going to run a healthy hospital after lying, cheating and exposing the dark underbelly of their failure to train and manage staff effectively.

How a case that is all about misogyny, and women’s safety dignity and comfort, becomes all about racism.

When this comes to its conclusion, I will stand with SP. Not because I am racist. Because I am a feminist and she has been brave and struck a blow for women everywhere. She has been targeted by NHSF and become an Aunt Sally to distract from the things NHSF want no one to notice. I will stand with SP.

I may even make more effort with my handbags.

I remember Dot Cotton saying that in the early days of East Enders.

Thank you for making me and others aware of this ET. I have been educated, just disappointed at the past few days. Hopefully it will bring change and women can feel safer in their working and other environments.

I assumed that was part of the point of putting her back on the stand. "You may not like her opinions, but she's being straightforward and honest, unlike the dissembling NHSF lot", kinda thing.

Suffrage and Feminism: It seems to many of us that it was a middle class movement because of the dominance of the Pankhurst women and their friends. Most of us are reading only a summary of those events of the early 20C.
Someone has speculated that Sandie Peggie might be difficult to work with, gobby I think was said. I am certain sure that Emmeline Pankhurst was a pain in the arse if one did not agree with her entirely.

And these are the men the law has given validation to through the GRA and equality act, forced us all to pretend we don’t know what they’re up to. It’s insane to me that a business can’t discriminate against employing a man dressed as a woman when this is the reason he’s doing it, and involving all the other employees without their consent.