NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

I find myself wondering how many clinical Fife staff are going to end up with GMC/NMC referrals, once this is all over. Maybe we should have a syndicate.

Her friendship group is likely to be a bit smaller and acutely wary of her going forward.

I have said this on other threads, I don’t have to agree with everything you say to agree with you on women’s rights to single sex spaces.

Of course I am disappointed that SP has indulged in such awful posts in the pursuit of shock value or even because she and her Benidorm posse genuinely believe what the revolting jokes said. But I’m not going to stop supporting her in this tribunal on that basis because this tribunal is bigger than her and Upton and is needed as part of a reset of our rights that have been eroded over the last decade or so.

The erosion ironically has been possible because of people who are so desperate not to be (incorrectly) seen as bigots that they ignore reality and claim under oath that they don’t know what sex they are.

Well into the 70s and early 80s the N word was used as a colour description in fashion in the UK- I once had to edit a whole archive radio piece to cut it the n word so it said the brown skirt, brown jacket etc rather than the ‘n brown skirt’ - can you imagine asking for that as an option in a shop!

Now it's over I just feel flat, disappointed, subdued, and - dare I say it - sad. We were hoping for a grand final flourish from NC and what we got was a character asassination there was no coming back from and it just fizzled out. Heroes often turn out later to have feet of clay, it's a shame Sandie turned out not to be an exception.

I hope at least it makes NHSF stop and think about the toxicity there is in the hospital beyond SP and DU. But I won't hold my breath.

Our diversity training (HE) was always an online multiple choice effort where it was so blindingly obvious what to tick that it basically achieved nothing. It had to be done but could be whisked through in less than 10 minutes and didn't really teach anyone anything. Other training, in person, e.g change management, was way more effective. But I do see that providing in person training, even as teams sessions for an all staff required course in a massive institution is very resource intensive.

But yes, a lot of the current provision is useless, and seen by many as an 'oh god, that again' thing. Something needs to change.

Just to say a huge thanks to nauticant and everyone else involved on all these threads..
I have laughed, cried, sworn and learned so much! A complete rollercoaster of emotions.
Thank you all.x

Just want to say I agree with this. There are people who are very #bekind in everything they say and post but who never put themselves out for anyone who is in trouble, unless they can see some benefit in it for themselves. Then there are those who do say and post jokes and memes that could be described as -isms and -phobias but are always ready to help someone of any protected characteristic. Then there are a whole bunch of people in the middle who do a bit of both. Deeds, not words, mean more to me.

I remember hearing some offensive sexist jokes more than 40 years ago from a fellow undergraduate (who grew up in Scotland), read some dodgy stuff in student rag mags around the same time that got complained about so much that it never happened again, and (slightly) more recently heard a string of horrible race-themed 'jokes', more like those in the list here, from a Belgian bloke.

Clearly there's a cultural difference, with a side order of people noticing that I'm a humourless old fart, and an awareness in any publicly-funded job I've worked in that there are very very strict rules and oversight about any kind of offensive generalisations.

So I would question any claim that 'we all' hear this stuff all the time.

And I think the whole seedy episode of the emails, just as much as the pandering to men using women's facilities, shows up a huge problem with NHSF, maybe NHS more generally, and staff training.

I think my expectations of today were off. I was kind of expecting that SP was being brought back to try to exonerate herself, if that is the right word. But I don't think that was the point. Her views are what are views are. Some of them are really unpleasant.

But as I've mentioned previously, she seems credible as a witness. I don't think this is me being biased, but I find her retelling of events to be believable. I genuinely think she just doesn't want any men in the female changing room, regardless of identity. And although she may have some other bigoted views, I don't think her views on single sex changing facilities is motivated by bigotry (which is the angle JR is going for). I think DU in the changing room made her feel uncomfortable. And it seems that it made other women uncomfortable too, but they were afraid to say anything. NHS Fife has a duty of care to all of its employees, and they handled this really badly.

SP's testimony was markedly different from BU's, who was slippery, snarky and evasive. And then there was all the business with his phone. The other NHS Fife witnesses cames across as out of touch with reality (IB), they contradicted each other's testimony, they tied themselves in knots. There was the flawed investigation, no equality impact assessment because there was no policy, unequal treatment of protected characteristics.

I think this is what it will all boil down to, and the mudslinging and unpleasantness from the last couple of days won't have that much bearing on the final outcome.

Before you go - is it noteworthy that this drama, about between two white people, with an entirely white cast (except for as I said earlier a supporting radicalized healthcare assistant whose only appearance is tied to race) in a predominantly white organization - is descended into semi-farce over racism allegations?

is there an argument that racism has been rolled out to virtue-signal and divert?

I can’t figure out how to feel about it.

About 1970, my mum sent me to the shop with an empty spool of Coats' thread. "Will you tell Mary that I need the same colour?"

The name was "N--- brown." I remember so clearly because of the ensuing discussion.

"Tell your mum that it's the same colour, but they've changed the name because we're not allowed to say that now."

The replacement name was "African brown".

There were tights the same colour. Eventually, they became "Brown Black".

Even if SP is racist, that’s no reason to make her have to share a changing room with a man. And nor is it a reason for her colleagues- some of whom will have kept silent to keep the peace- to have to share with a man either.

I certainly wouldn’t expect to have to strip off in front of a man just because a coworker had sent racist jokes in a WhatsApp group.

If she was in court for the racism fair dos, that would be very relevant. But honestly, even if she were kissing a picture of Hitler every night before bed that’s no excuse for mixed sex changing rooms.

Absolutely, there has to be root and branch reform. Something is quite rotten in the culture at Fife.

We've got senior staff who behave like they think there's a hierarchy of protected characteristics. Doctors who are willing to lie to tribunals in support of that ideology, and who don't bother reporting serious incidents. Group chats with racist jokes peopled by people who not only laugh at them, but are so clueless that they don't even realise there might be repercussions from voluntarily sharing them with a tribunal and millions of the observing public.

She's a nasty racist - even in 80s 90s etc people knew it was wrong, they just thought they could get away with it.

She’s still entitled to a single sex changing room.

It bears no relevance to this case imo.

Whilst I agree that SP, racist views notwithstanding, is entailed not to have men in her changing rooms, I can’t help feeling that recalling her for cross examination was a huge tactical error.

What were NC and her team thinking? She had made good headway in discrediting LN yesterday and recovered quite a bit of ground. Why didn’t she leave it there? Unless she was certain that SP would have an attractive and suitably contrite explanation for her behaviour, surely it was better dealt with in argument? There, as a skilled advocate, she could have explained why SP’s views on other issues were ultimately irrelevant.

Instead SP came across so badly and will have lost the panel’s sympathy. It’s also the “final word” - the last thing the tribunal will have in their minds as they start to deliberate.

I’d hope that logic will out and SP will succeed anyway, but I can’t help thinking that the odds are now stacked against her more heavily than they were at this time yesterday.

many of us are probably guilty of expecting real life to resemble the court dramas we see on tv or in films. We were all waiting for version of jack Nicholson to cream' You can't handle the truth!' But what really matters is the sum of the whole parts. I'm sure the judge will base on his decision on everything that's not been said over the course of the hearing, not just what has occurred in the past couple of days.

Oh.

Ohhhhh!

Mixing mushy peas with curry sauce seems so distributively efficient I can't believe I didn't think of it myself!

It sort of puts me in mind of the quote from The People vs Larry Flint - a person I do not think I would like at all if I knew him.

“If the First Amendment will protect a scumbag like me, it will protect all of you.”

and while I’m not calling SP a scumbag, the point stands that the law should protect everyone, the holy and the unholy.

Nooo!
The Hallmarked Man by Robert Galbraith is published on September 2nd!
I have pre-ordered the hardback copy and plan to pick it up when the bookshop opens and start then to begin reading in my favourite cafe.
I cannot be distracted by tribunals 😳😱

Absolutely agree with you.

He thinks so. I want a choice of what is in each mouthful.

But then he doesn't pour gravy into his Yorkshire puds, which i don't get. As apparently the bottom goes mushy. Yes, mate, that's the point.

SP will still win, get £65K, and NHS fife will be forced to put the men in the mens. don;t worry

Top tune.

I didn’t read all of SP’s cross examination as found myself cringing. JR did a decent job. I’m surprised no one on claimant’s team advised SP to show humility and apologise? Why on earth did she feel the need to get on her soapbox about immigration and how calling people “pakis” etc is okay?

In a way, I’m glad SP’s views have been established in front of the tribunal, ultimately they have all the information now to make a balanced decision.

Personally I would say that given SP’s conduct, I can understand why the NHS were moving to constructive manage her out. I’m not saying it’s fair or that she doesn’t deserve compensation (I do believe the NHS have been found culpable of the tribunal complaints), however I can clearly imagine she was part of a toxic culture and it was a good opportunity for her employer to move her away to try and improve that culture.