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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47

1000 replies

nauticant · 29/07/2025 11:43

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

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Jimmyneutronsforehead · 29/07/2025 16:48

murasaki · 29/07/2025 16:44

Not that giant, say lentil sized?

I might dare try it. For some reason in my head I've got this James's and the giant peach sized couscous image. Complete with insect companions.

Largesso · 29/07/2025 16:48

Thanks so much peeps for the ROBUST discussions.

Such different views and disagreements have always been core to feminism.

We need to be able to disagree for a pluralistic society to function.

Some folk would have us all agree about everything but then we wouldn’t need the law would we.

And the law in this is our necessary companion.

I’ll be back after submissions.

looking forward to it.

Boiledbeetle · 29/07/2025 16:48

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 29/07/2025 16:43

I've never heard of giant couscous before today. I'm a little bit scared. How giant exactly is giant?

Huuuuuuge!

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47
BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 29/07/2025 16:49

Really long anecdotal and stream of consciousness post incoming, apologies for the derail from the tribunal!

At the time I grew up, and in my area (Scotland) it was also common to use the P and C words for small shops of any kinds and for takeaway Chinese food. A lot of people (my Father included) used these, along with common slurs for gay or lesbian, and made racist and anti-English jokes.
Our small area was almost entirely a white, heterosexual community but we had a pounding tourist trade and a fair whack of English people who'd moved up the road.
Weirdly, actually treating people differently, overt racism or homophobia was very rare. There were a few really nasty fuckers, including those who were prejudiced towards the English.

I always hated it though. It always felt unjust and disrespectful and although I was actually quite frightened of him, I had a few goes at my Father as a teenager for it.
I think these moments of headbutting confused him a lot, because he was one of those people who actually really liked everyone. He never treated people differently because of skin colour, religion or culture, and had a genuine friendly curiosity about anyone different to him that he met. He'd talk to anyone and everyone, buy them a pint if possible, and everyone would be talking like old friends before you knew it. He would keep in touch by letter with some of the friends he made along the way.

I knew that about him, but still felt it was horrible of him to make those "jokes" and use those words because even if the intent is not offensive the general effect of those words and jokes is negative.
For example, parents who were not (bar the rare few) racist, but made the jokes and comments had a trickle down effect that resulted in racism in some of their children.

Our school was entirely white except for two students.

One had white Scottish parents, but for whatever reason, this student was born with dark skin and very tight curls type texture of hair and could have passed for black or mixed race. Any way this particular student got on fine in our area, was part of the popular crowd and was therefore "safe" from their racism.

The other student was not so lucky. This student also had dark skin and had close cropped afro curled hair, but came from a mixed race family of a different religion than was practiced in the area. One parent was black, the other parent was white, and there was also a younger sibling who was white passing with straight hair and pale skin.
This student was quiet, studious, talented and just an all round nice person, but was not part of the popular crowd. Instead because of their skin colour, family set up, and difference in religion, this student (not the younger white passing sibling mind!) was bullied by the popular crowd, including by the other dark skinned student. The bullying was sometimes over the family's religion, but was more often than not racist.
It was fucking horrible! No one with any power (teachers, parents etc) seemed to do anything about it, or even care that it was happening. Eventually the whole family left, I suspect the overt racism and othering of their religion was the cause. I really hope they found somewhere much nicer to live!

Then there's "casual" racism. I had a conversation with guy from my area a little while back, his friend group is a bunch of white Scottish, same cultural and same or very similar religious backgrounds, and one guy who immigrated here from Pakistan.
The guy told me a racist joke and I told him it wasn't funny, just racist. He responded with the old "But my friend is brown and he thinks these jokes are hilarious!" guff. So I told him well he fucking has to laugh doesn't he? If he didn't laugh along and make jokes about himself for the amusement of the group, you would all think he wasn't "fun" to be around. If he protested at your racist jokes? Well he'd probably not be part of the group any more would he? This guy did not agree. He and his other white friends are probably still making racist jokes at the expense of their Pakistani "friend" seeing absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I think situations like that, where the people at the butt of the joke laugh along, maybe even making the jokes about themselves unprompted, like examples PPs have given about the Pakistani people they know could be looked at in a context similar to that friendship group but on a country wide scale, if that makes sense?

So for example on a personal level, I noticed a while back that my low self confidence was leading me to make self deprecating jokes a lot.
It was just reinforcing that low confidence in my own head and it was a self defeating cycle. It also devalued me to other people and over time it does make a difference to how people treat and see you.
Friends and colleagues began to do it too. After all I was joking about myself, so why wouldn't other people join in with the laughs? Which is fine if you just do it occasionally I guess.
When you take the piss out of yourself a lot a lot, people start doing it too and more frequently. Eventually you notice that you have became the butt of a lot of jokes, and the jokes lead to a definite difference in how people see you over all.
You could have proved yourself to be a useful and capable person time after time, but if you make yourself the butt of the jokes, people start to treat you like you're a bit useless and silly. You get comments with a little eye roll and a laugh, or if somethings gone wrong, or there's been a small fuck up people joke that it's your fault. I think it seeps into the subconscious and people will actually start to believe you are a bit useless and think it's your fault if something goes wrong. It's a very hard habit to get out of.

So when I see people saying here Pakistani people they know make these sort of jokes about themselves etc, I think well yeah that makes sense to me in context of immigrating to what used to be a predominantly white country with a very different cultural and religious history. People would have tried to fit in and make as few waves as possible. I think that if they didn't laugh along they would be wrongly seen by a lot of people as difficult and humourless, and I think a divide would have grown with a lot of white people resentful at any push back without thinking that maybe they had anything to do with the problems that had "suddenly" appeared from "nowhere".

I am white so this is not me trying to be all self important white person becomes arbiter of what constitutes racism, it's just my personal thoughts which I may not have articulated nearly so well as I'd have liked. Hopefully you'll all understand what I'm getting at.

Apologies if I've caused any offense to anyone from a Pakistani background, I'm sure you are perfectly capable of standing up for yourselves if you feel it necessary and it certainly wasn't my intention to offend in any way, or imply that the Pakistani man I mentioned earlier needs a white person like me to save him, or tell him or any Pakistani people what to find offensive or not, and I would be genuinely horrified at myself if I've caused anyone distress or upset with what I've said.

NotfinanciallyresponsibleforyouSadTimes · 29/07/2025 16:49

Many thanks to @nauticant for doing a sterling job.

These threads have certainly helped raise an interest in what is happening to women’s rights in the worked and how organisations have been captured by an ideology that is eroding fairness to all.

It has been an eye opener for me, and I dare say many others, in spite of those who have done their best to derail the thread. I have a clearer understanding of why my LGB friends say Pride is homophobic and why they now struggle in the workplace. Those futile derailments etc led to me making a donation to Sex Matters, sending SP a support card where ever that has ended up, and taking out a subscription to a Scottish newspaper.

so thank you all. I am now off to make some jam ❤️

WearyAuldWumman · 29/07/2025 16:49

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 29/07/2025 16:37

My favourite tiny pasta is pastini stars. Pastini in chicken broth with a squeeze of lemon and an extremely generous twisting of cracked black pepper.

Couscous is just wrong though because although it is a pasta, it would feel awful in the mouth with a pasta sauce on it. It would be akin to committing a serious crime.

What?! Couscous is a pasta? That explains why I reacted badly when I ate it - it was just the gluten...

DrPrunesqualer · 29/07/2025 16:51
K Pop Thank You GIF by MOODMAN

Thankyou everyone. !!!

Tandora · 29/07/2025 16:51

NotfinanciallyresponsibleforyouSadTimes · 29/07/2025 16:49

Many thanks to @nauticant for doing a sterling job.

These threads have certainly helped raise an interest in what is happening to women’s rights in the worked and how organisations have been captured by an ideology that is eroding fairness to all.

It has been an eye opener for me, and I dare say many others, in spite of those who have done their best to derail the thread. I have a clearer understanding of why my LGB friends say Pride is homophobic and why they now struggle in the workplace. Those futile derailments etc led to me making a donation to Sex Matters, sending SP a support card where ever that has ended up, and taking out a subscription to a Scottish newspaper.

so thank you all. I am now off to make some jam ❤️

in spite of those who have done their best to derail the thread

you mean those who have a different opinion on the tribunal?

Needspaceforlego · 29/07/2025 16:52

WearyAuldWumman · 29/07/2025 16:25

I've never heard any jokes about Lockerbie. I do think that geography plays a part - one of my husband's best friends was on a mountain rescue team and he and his dog were asked to look for remains at the crash site.

When the kids in my then classes spoke of Dunblane, they spoke of the teacher trying to shield her pupils. I think that they were trying to reassure themselves?

I do recall being asked what would happen if something similar happened in our school: I told them that it was my job to look after them.

I think you could be on to something with geography. Lockerbie was in Scotland and lots of people fly it could happen to anyone.

But yes heard a fair few Fred West jokes over the years.

Maybe its something to do with picturing yourself in the situation.

Im sure some psychologist will have an answer to events that trigger jokes and events that don't

DrPrunesqualer · 29/07/2025 16:52
Thank U GIF

and from Pete to Naomi

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 29/07/2025 16:52

WearyAuldWumman · 29/07/2025 16:43

I used to eat food separately, to the chagrin of family members. Eventually, one of my cousin's kids got a formal diagnosis - it explained a lot about our family.

On the other hand, I once had a pupil who would pour his pudding onto his main course and eat it all at the same time because it was much more 'efficient'.

We used to have the most wonderful discussions about Doctor Who when I was on dinner duty.

I can respect his solution to preventing decision fatigue by putting himself into a position where he neither has to choose nor waste time but that's even more disgusting than my cousin asking the takeaway to mix his garlic and curry sauce together, in what has less than affectionately been recognised between both parties as a gary sauce.

Talkinpeace · 29/07/2025 16:53

.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47
Greyskybluesky · 29/07/2025 16:53

Notquitethetruth · 29/07/2025 16:44

I hope you are right. That is the issue that we all should be talking about but it's not. That's unfortunate. I certainly wouldn't want to stand beside her and celebrate her victory when it comes.

That is the issue that we all should be talking about but it's not.

Sorry? Of course it's what we're talking about. It's the central issue and it's why these 47 threads exist - to talk about the man in the women's changing room.
We're discussing the racism as well, obviously, because it's possible to talk about more than one aspect of the case. But men in women's spaces is the focus here, always has been and always will be.

NotfinanciallyresponsibleforyouSadTimes · 29/07/2025 16:53

DrPrunesqualer · 29/07/2025 16:48

The trans activists will definitely dwell on it and use it to argue Sandie ( and therefore all women ) have no right to SSS.

But they’ve never understood the reality that all women want is privacy and safety
They've never understood Sex Matters

They've just never understood …🥱 what it’s all about

Well said 👏🏻.

The TRAs just miss the whole point about safety and privacy.

murasaki · 29/07/2025 16:54

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 29/07/2025 16:52

I can respect his solution to preventing decision fatigue by putting himself into a position where he neither has to choose nor waste time but that's even more disgusting than my cousin asking the takeaway to mix his garlic and curry sauce together, in what has less than affectionately been recognised between both parties as a gary sauce.

Dp mixes his curry sauce and mushy peas and puts it ON his chips. I keep my mushy peas in a pot and have no truck with the sauce. I'm surprised we're still together.

NotAtMyAge · 29/07/2025 16:55

SwivelEyedHagBot · 29/07/2025 15:37

Thankyou @nauticant and @MarieDeGournay and Bez for your steering today and previously. The threads have been helpful and illuminating but have taken a turn for the repetitive and tedious. Roll on September and an actual bloomin' judgement so that all involved can put it behind them and other trusts can learn what I expect will be fairly extensive lessons.

There won't be a judgment in September, I'm afraid. These dates are simply for the final legal summing-up. Then the panel members will do their work of weighing the evidence and coming to a decision, which will probably take the rest of the year at least.

NotfinanciallyresponsibleforyouSadTimes · 29/07/2025 16:55

Tandora · 29/07/2025 16:51

in spite of those who have done their best to derail the thread

you mean those who have a different opinion on the tribunal?

Thank you for proving my point.

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 29/07/2025 16:57

Theunamedcat · 29/07/2025 16:26

I have a child who used to eat wheatabix like a biscuit nursery asked me what breakfast he liked as he was not liking it or the toast they offered i said serve it in seperate pots they did and were horrified

I don't think we need Weetabix bringing into the thread. Objection!

Grin
WearyAuldWumman · 29/07/2025 16:57

@murasaki My late husband didn't have a diagnosis. I'm sure that it was just a coincidence that he preferred sports where he was training by himself and that he absolutely refused to have any kind of sauce whatsoever: "It's the texture! I can't stand it!"

UpDo · 29/07/2025 16:58

WithSilverBells · 29/07/2025 16:11

And SP will have had plenty of statutory training working 40 years in NHS to know what was said wasn't ok.

Well the statutory training obviously isn't working for many, many people. Perhaps the 'inclusivity trainers' need to have a long, hard think about why that might be.

Excellent point.

SadSadTimes · 29/07/2025 16:59

oldwomanwhoruns · 29/07/2025 15:55

Getting back to the submissions - what is JR going to put in hers?

"Yes I know that Fife were wrong in law but Stonewall/EHRC told us it was ok, and anyway everyone was doing it"
"...and the Supreme Court decision is just about Public Boards so does not apply..."
Does anyone have any better guesses?

JR might say SP is a bigot and therefore also transphobic and therefore was disgusted by DU in her changing room and therefore used sss requirement as an excuse to be able to get him out. Because bigoted.

But... how does she get around the fact SP deserves sss, no matter what her thinking? Must watch Michael Foran tonight!

RabbitFurCoat · 29/07/2025 16:59

Tiddler1976 · 29/07/2025 14:25

As a University Lecturer in the early 2000s, I had to tell a student not to use that word when telling me as it was a Friday, she was going home for a (and I'll not repeat the word she used) chinese takeaway. She actually responded with, "What's wrong with saying C" as no one had ever pointed it out to her before as being offensive. Shocking, and I don't think I've actually heard it said since tbh.

I said it as a kid in the 90s, absolutely no idea it was offensive. We were singing the N word in eenie meenie minie mo as small kids early 90s in playground. As an adult I've been pulled up on ableist language that I didn't know origin of (thalidomide), in 2010s. Some people absolutely knew these were wrong back then but depending who said it (I heard it all from other kids in playground) there was never someone to say it was wrong. Was bollocked as a kid once for saying twat when I thought it was just like twit. But at some point, you learn, right? And language in isolation isn't the same as jokes about immigration and minorities dying in natural disasters. IMO these are two diff things, and the contextualisation of the lang is irrelevant to the fact that those jokes were more than just single words used innocently.

Mollyollydolly · 29/07/2025 17:00

Couldn't agree more.

Helen Joyce: What a slog this has been for Sandie. If anyone wonders why more women don't speak up, you only have to think of the near-literal witch trial that follows. How many more women will have to subject themselves to character assassination before we get our rights?

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47
Greyskybluesky · 29/07/2025 17:00

WearyAuldWumman · 29/07/2025 16:49

What?! Couscous is a pasta? That explains why I reacted badly when I ate it - it was just the gluten...

I know, right?
Get plenty of grains in your diet and cut the carbs, I was told.
Didn't realise couscous identified as a grain...

Jacopo · 29/07/2025 17:01

As the thread is still running I would like to take the opportunity to use Eddie Mair’s immortal words to Boris Johnson and say

“You’re a nasty piece of work, aren’t you?”

to Lindsey Nicoll.

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