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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #46

1000 replies

nauticant · 28/07/2025 16:04

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

OP posts:
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24
MarieDeGournay · 29/07/2025 09:49

MC Was after she was appointed. Certainly in the 1st month. Assume 21 Aug a typo. Yes I spoke to IB
NC This isnt routine, talking to IB
No
NC Did u consider these factors. Needs somewhere to change
Yes
NC F and M only CR
Yes
NC Du not comfy in M only
Yes

Hillfarmer · 29/07/2025 09:49

I applied as soon as I could for remote access to the Tribunal, got my entry code etc and I've tried every single day of the case to access it live - sometimes several times across the day - and have never managed it. My name appears on the left hand side list, but never heard or seen anything from the hearing on the screen.

Drives me mad!

Has anyone else had this? It's so frustrating. If I'm doing something wrong I sure as hell don't know was it is!

p.s. Go Sandie!

cocoonscriticupgrading · 29/07/2025 09:51

@Wasitabadger Sandy Peggie deserves the right of reply before condemnation.

Hear hear!

prh47bridge · 29/07/2025 09:51

ThatCyanCat · 29/07/2025 09:45

Regarding number 4, is there still a case for her to be referred to the Bar Standards Board? As you say, it is entirely irrelevant to the case and the only reasons I can see for doing it, since it doesn't provide any defence for denying SP a SS CR, is to punish her for speaking up by traducing her reputation publicly, deter others from doing the same (these two new witnesses are terrified, could it be an attempt to scare them off giving evidence?) and run down the court clock when time is already tight. Are these acceptable?

Possibly, but I think it is probably enough to stop the judge referring her. However, anyone can refer her if they have concerns over the way she has conducted this case. It is possible to report her online at Online reporting form for questions and concerns. Of course, I'm not encouraging people to refer her (tries to look innocent - I was only charging my phone, honest!).

Online reporting form for questions and concerns

https://www.barstandardsboard.org.uk/online-reporting-form.html

Flashout · 29/07/2025 09:52

BezMills · 29/07/2025 09:42

But also the c word is used like "folk" by the swearier people. Like "aw c£% wis having a braw time" or "nae c£% was there, so ah went hame"

My friend does this. It gives me a touch of the vapours.

Boiledbeetle · 29/07/2025 09:52

There's been a misgendering

OhBuggerandArse · 29/07/2025 09:52

Hillfarmer · 29/07/2025 09:49

I applied as soon as I could for remote access to the Tribunal, got my entry code etc and I've tried every single day of the case to access it live - sometimes several times across the day - and have never managed it. My name appears on the left hand side list, but never heard or seen anything from the hearing on the screen.

Drives me mad!

Has anyone else had this? It's so frustrating. If I'm doing something wrong I sure as hell don't know was it is!

p.s. Go Sandie!

Change your browser. That happens to me in Safari but not Chrome.

MarieDeGournay · 29/07/2025 09:52

Continues list incl HE wouldnt want to use M
NC Did u think what other space he cld use?
MC Yes. Is M and F in ED altho classed as locker rooms. GN staff toilets in dept in disbled toilet. Also M and F CR downstairs. Consultants change in office area which is reasonable
Only toilets are GN in dept. one GN in ? only used by ?
NC Re consultants
MC Not gendered. Occas we use the toilet if busy
NC There are ad hoc store rooms in dept
Yes, but multi use and may not be free
NC Reasons why use this one room, eg religious or trauma reasons
Yes

SerafinasGoose · 29/07/2025 09:53

suggestionsplease1 · 29/07/2025 09:19

It's a credibility issue.

She is now undermined in everything she says and so her self report can not be trusted. That's important to establish.

She's not the one who was falsifying evidence.

And that's not a defence of her racism.

AnnaBalfour · 29/07/2025 09:53

Wish the judge were as strict with timings when listening to hearsay, irrelevant gossip and irrelevant matters.

Lins77 · 29/07/2025 09:53

I don't have time to read the whole thread, but is there any info about the Emma from Sex Matters thing? She took a phone call from someone at Fife, but do we know any more than that?

MarieDeGournay · 29/07/2025 09:54

MC It doesnt make u a bigot to want to tke yr clothes off in front of anyone
[I wonder if TT wrote MC instead of NC??]

NC Ib advised that DU had right to F CR as IDed as F
MC Yes, entitled to use CR of G she IDd as so we followed advice
NC U didnt pass this info to those using F CR
MC No as clnt violate s'ones confid

Boiledbeetle · 29/07/2025 09:54

Hillfarmer · 29/07/2025 09:49

I applied as soon as I could for remote access to the Tribunal, got my entry code etc and I've tried every single day of the case to access it live - sometimes several times across the day - and have never managed it. My name appears on the left hand side list, but never heard or seen anything from the hearing on the screen.

Drives me mad!

Has anyone else had this? It's so frustrating. If I'm doing something wrong I sure as hell don't know was it is!

p.s. Go Sandie!

A friend of mine has had similar issues since the start, but has been successful a few times, but only after logging off and trying again.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/07/2025 09:54

Jitrenka · 28/07/2025 19:26

I sadly think this is all from a time when it was acceptable to say these sorts of things and even sadder as sexist as this is going to sound (i dont mean it to be) but these jokes are working men’s jokes and coming from a woman they sound harsher even worse they were in a group chat with other women and the fact not one of them said maybe this isn’t the right place for that sort of humour is quite telling of the kind of group this was.

I absolutely agree. I do think many men share this kind of stuff all the time, horrible though it is, and I doubt if this was about a working class man anyone would be looking so hard at his sick sense of humour. If you want to see some nasty comments, go and look at a Facebook discussion of any newsworthy accident or tragedy, particularly when there are certain ethnicities involved, or types of people. I think a lot of people on this thread are quite naive as to the extent of it. The commenters are probably fairly normal, pleasant people in every other aspect, and the people claiming these attitudes are rare in younger people will definitely deal with or be around some of these people unknowingly. I have male family members and male friends who I know would share these types of jokes. My late working class dad (think Del Boy and you’re not far off) used to use some fairly colourful (racist) language about different groups of people, and he knew where he could use it (male environments like building sites and his social clubs) and where he couldn’t. The types of place where all the lads have an amusing and often unflattering nickname. To them it’s just banter.

This is a court case, and so we are seeing things which the posters expected to remain entirely private. So they’re going to feel comfortable saying them. As pp said, anyone making those comments would have known that they would be well received, and people on the chat would find them funny. I imagine racism is endemic and that Fife is a pretty horrible place to work as a nurse if you aren't white or don’t share this attitude. I’ve worked with a group of extremely racist women before in a very white environment, you wouldn’t necessarily have known if you didn’t catch them talking about it in private. I asked to move my break, so I didn’t have to sit with them because I thought the comments were awful and yes they were the level of the SP ones. I didn’t give that reason to anyone, including the boss, I made up an excuse why I wanted to change the time, but they were distinctly frosty with me after so I assume they knew, and they considered me prissy and stuck up. Hey ho.

Anyway, this is about an injustice in the workplace. Sandie Peggie’s character, as seen in a snapshot of her private chat, does not mean she isn’t entitled to legal protections when discriminated against or harassed, nor does it prove she would act in a discriminatory way towards anyone in reality. Just like in a rape case when the defence go digging in the complainant’s past, it’s often dirty tactics to undermine her, and it has no bearing on whether or not she was actually violated by the man in question.

angelinawasrobbed · 29/07/2025 09:55

Am I right in thinking that ALL the accusations of racism that have bubbled under throughout these hearings stem from this one WhatApp incident? Or were other occasions alleged ?

chilling19 · 29/07/2025 09:55

Here it is again - no consideration of anyone else’s need for privacy and dignity.

Hoardasurass · 29/07/2025 09:56

Cailleach1 · 29/07/2025 09:40

I wonder if ‘fanny’ is used as an equivalent to the c word in Fife (maybe NHSF). Or is it milder?

Fanny is used in much the same way as twitter and or moron normally its not as harsh a word as cunt

MarieDeGournay · 29/07/2025 09:56

NC But u agreed a risk F staff might object, wldnt it be prudent to know what coming to deal w onjections at first so he's be welcomed
MC Decisions made on risk to an indiv and to dept. I know ppl aware before started that trans. Wasnt partic aware anyone wld be concerned.
LM [line management I think] between gps is separate. No concerns raised and other spaces can be used to change. Dont think advertising DUs t status wld be right thing to do
NC Left them to find out 1 by 1 by surprise, made it harder for them to challenge this didnt it.
MC Separation betwn mgmt of nursing

prh47bridge · 29/07/2025 09:56

Lins77 · 29/07/2025 09:53

I don't have time to read the whole thread, but is there any info about the Emma from Sex Matters thing? She took a phone call from someone at Fife, but do we know any more than that?

The information available suggests the phone call was from a nurse (or possibly a group of nurses) who object to Upton in their changing room but haven't felt able to speak out, hence allowing Fife to push the line that SP was the only nurse who had a problem with Upton in the changing room.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 29/07/2025 09:56

MC not answering qu's directly. Shoves ED under bus instead.

Lins77 · 29/07/2025 09:57

prh47bridge · 29/07/2025 09:56

The information available suggests the phone call was from a nurse (or possibly a group of nurses) who object to Upton in their changing room but haven't felt able to speak out, hence allowing Fife to push the line that SP was the only nurse who had a problem with Upton in the changing room.

Thank you - should be interesting.

chilling19 · 29/07/2025 09:59

The denial of the hostile working environment is quite astounding.

MarieDeGournay · 29/07/2025 09:59

MC Separation betwn mgmt of nursing and med staff. ED had already raised w IB.
NC Made it more personal didnt it? Left them to find out, so had to do it in a personal way re DU than about a policy
MC Not sure if agree. Cld say unhappy w rule
NC S'one had to be the 1st to object. Take real courage in a twaw dept?
MC Can u repeat the Q [does]
NC All the senior staff saying twaw and only a bigot wld refuse
MC Wld use the term bigot
NC Are u saying wld be easy to say I dont feel safe
MC Our dept gen is described as open. Feedback from ex workers. Hope ppl wld feel able to raise concerns

NebulousSupportPostcard · 29/07/2025 09:59

MC a bit like KS. Quite arsey tone, enunciating in annoyed voice while describing flat hierarchy and welcoming environment.

Boiledbeetle · 29/07/2025 10:00

chilling19 · 29/07/2025 09:59

The denial of the hostile working environment is quite astounding.

Especially as at this point even an idiot can see it was horrifically hostile.

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