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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #46

1000 replies

nauticant · 28/07/2025 16:04

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
chilling19 · 29/07/2025 09:38

Gonna be tight today

snickersbarchild · 29/07/2025 09:38

How quickly with the j's proposed timetable go to pot?

Boiledbeetle · 29/07/2025 09:38

Judge setting out exact timings for today.

To be concluded by 4pm

MC being questioned by NC as soon as judge comes back as nipped out

Boiledbeetle · 29/07/2025 09:40

Is Naomis mike off?

Cailleach1 · 29/07/2025 09:40

OvaHere · 29/07/2025 09:27

I think the grudge is money and and the attention SP is getting. She was quoted as saying something like Sandie is a fanny who doesn't deserve a big payout.

Stuff like this changes the dynamics of existing relationships. See also inheritances, lottery wins, winning Britain's Got Talent, so on and so forth.

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I wonder if ‘fanny’ is used as an equivalent to the c word in Fife (maybe NHSF). Or is it milder?

Szygy · 29/07/2025 09:40

Can barely hear NC

ETA Oh phew. Mic not plugged in 🙄

ickky · 29/07/2025 09:40

FFS the microphones are off

Boiledbeetle · 29/07/2025 09:40

NC has now plugged her Mike in

BezMills · 29/07/2025 09:41

Cailleach1 · 29/07/2025 09:40

I wonder if ‘fanny’ is used as an equivalent to the c word in Fife (maybe NHSF). Or is it milder?

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Nah fanny is like stupid and c#&% is like bad person.

snickersbarchild · 29/07/2025 09:41

Poor Mike

Jitrenka · 29/07/2025 09:41

God i hope NC can win this back for Sandie!! 🙏

irredeemablyperfidious · 29/07/2025 09:41

What did the J say before he nipped out? It sounded like, "It looks as if we have overspill over there."

RabbitFurCoat · 29/07/2025 09:41

Cailleach1 · 29/07/2025 09:40

I wonder if ‘fanny’ is used as an equivalent to the c word in Fife (maybe NHSF). Or is it milder?

Show quote history

If it's anything like the NE use of it you could chuck it at a kid in a pinch. It's rude ish but it's not anywhere like the c word. It's silly.

langtounescapee · 29/07/2025 09:41

Cailleach1 · 29/07/2025 09:40

I wonder if ‘fanny’ is used as an equivalent to the c word in Fife (maybe NHSF). Or is it milder?

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In this context it’s equivalent to saying she’s an idiot. Much milder than the C word.

Wasitabadger · 29/07/2025 09:42

Not meaning to derail the thread. There are obviously lots of comments about FEMINISM. Can we possibly remind ourselves that Feminism was started by WHITE MIDDLE CLASS WOMEN. They ignored the working class servants, the black and ethnic minorities. What I am saying is they were strong formidable women however, they were not perfect. Sandy Peggie deserves the right of reply before condemnation.

MarieDeGournay · 29/07/2025 09:42

from TT
C Its obvious DU is M?
MC I dont agree
NC I suggest that obv not giving u new info but had his PC in mind when u interviewed him. A shot across bows
MC I dont know why she did
NC U must have heard of trouble he's caused at WB?
MC I wasnt aware

BezMills · 29/07/2025 09:42

But also the c word is used like "folk" by the swearier people. Like "aw c£% wis having a braw time" or "nae c£% was there, so ah went hame"

Boiledbeetle · 29/07/2025 09:44

snickersbarchild · 29/07/2025 09:41

Poor Mike

Bloody autocarrot!

RabbitFurCoat · 29/07/2025 09:44

BezMills · 29/07/2025 09:42

But also the c word is used like "folk" by the swearier people. Like "aw c£% wis having a braw time" or "nae c£% was there, so ah went hame"

Oh true. In NE they put the word daft before it and it pulls it down a bit, maybe not to the same level as the Scottish one tho

ThatCyanCat · 29/07/2025 09:45

prh47bridge · 29/07/2025 09:38

Having slept on it, my thoughts on yesterday.

  1. As I have said several times, SP's right to a single sex changing rooms is not dependent on her political views. Even if she is a white supremacist, she is still entitled to a single sex changing room and she should not have been hounded for trying to assert that right.
  2. This is straight out of the TRA playbook. I am not surprised to see many TRAs on social media seizing on yesterday's evidence and saying "I told you so" or similar. They continue to push the idea that anyone objecting to a man in a single sex space for women must be racist. They clearly want to use yesterday's evidence to try and peel away some of the public support for SP.
  3. I don't think this helped Fife at all. It is tangential to the case.
  4. JR needed this evidence. Without it, she would have repeatedly branded SP as racist and encouraged witnesses to do the same with no supporting evidence beyond some third of fourth hand gossip. That could have led to her being referred to the Bar Standards Board. This evidence is probably enough to avoid that.
  5. We have not heard from SP regarding any of the evidence introduced yesterday. Fife has rightly been criticised for rushing to judgement on the changing room incident without troubling to find out SP's version of events. She has the right to answer these accusations too. I note that JR was keen to stop SP having any opportunity to respond to this evidence.
  6. TRAs and some media outlets seem to have focussed on the bacon allegation. The evidence for that is pretty weak. FW, who introduced it, can't say when it happened but it was clearly years ago and it seems SP says that the alleged comment was made by someone else. No-one else who was there has given evidence. The rest of FW's allegations have even less detail. I'm not sure I would regard her as a reliable witness, especially given that she and LN ignored the judge's instructions and spoke to each other during the lunch break. She says it was just about what to eat for lunch. Bluntly, I don't believe her.
  7. If the list of jokes that has been posted on here is correct, some of them are pretty bad. However, it appears this is the one time SP has shared racist jokes or said anything racist in a conversation that has gone on for 7 years and thousands of messages. That doesn't forgive these, but it provides context. In my view, it is not as bad as aiming racist slurs at members of minorities or, worse, subjecting them to substandard care. I'm not saying these jokes are acceptable.
  8. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is a maxim LN should have heeded. Her evidence appears to be motivated by spite. She clearly thought that Fife would have her back and that no-one would see anything other than the few messages she introduced. She may well have ended her own career. Sharing confidential patient details in a group chat like this is clear misconduct. And I suspect some of her colleagues will want to distance themselves from her if they've been following what happened yesterday. She may come to bitterly regret turning on SP.

Regarding number 4, is there still a case for her to be referred to the Bar Standards Board? As you say, it is entirely irrelevant to the case and the only reasons I can see for doing it, since it doesn't provide any defence for denying SP a SS CR, is to punish her for speaking up by traducing her reputation publicly, deter others from doing the same (these two new witnesses are terrified, could it be an attempt to scare them off giving evidence?) and run down the court clock when time is already tight. Are these acceptable?

Jitrenka · 29/07/2025 09:46

Isnt this the witness NC wanted an hour and a half on?

MarieDeGournay · 29/07/2025 09:46

[MC = Dr Margaret Currer]

NC [new doc] Look at response to Q11 - EP's Ix notes mtg w AG. [reads re unknown members of staff and info sharing betwn consultant anf jrs] Clare heard that Beth wld be allowed to use the CR. What did Clare Stewart said
MC I cant help as wasnt there
NC U have monthly cons mtg
MC Yes
NC EP said IBs advice was discussed at mtg
MC We have weekly mtgs involving diff ppl. Monthly involve nursing staff. I dont attend all mtgs due to roster
NC Re contact w IB before DU started work. Go to p1186: Mrs Davidson said y'd taken advice from IB before DU started

Lins77 · 29/07/2025 09:46

LittlePigRobinson · 29/07/2025 09:32

SP isn't necessarily undermined in everything she says after yesterday. She's going to be cross examined again and (hopefully) will 'own' the jokes she made and accept responsibility and apologise for any offence.
That's what I'd do if I'd been found making less than favourable comments online.
Of course she could also go down the NHS Fife route and make excuses, use weasel words and lie which imo will undermine her word as much as Fife have undermined theirs.

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I'm pretty sure she'll do the former - regardless of how she really feels, that is the obvious thing to do.

I had to step away from the whole thing yesterday as I was upset and disappointed about the racist "jokes", which I think are indefensible.

But I still want to see how it all plays out and I still hope Sandie wins, because regardless of some unpleasant aspects to her, I still believe she is in the right over this case.

cocoonscriticupgrading · 29/07/2025 09:49

quote: SP is racist

The 'jokes' she shared are racist. No argument. They are dreadful! However, they were from years ago - this does not mean that Sandie is currently racist. She is being hung drawn and quartered without taking into account any personal growth or enlightenment that she may (or may not) have undertaken in those intervening years. She is being given a label that may no longer apply.

NHS Fife's tactics stink ... but there is nothing to say they can't fight dirty when they know a light is being shone on them to expose how poor is their management.

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