NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #46

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

I think the culture at NHS Fife is fucked. No reports or actions taken against SP for the racism but as soon as she say “no” to Upton they spring into action? Why were the allegations of racism not the discipline charge? It’s not credible that it was fear of SP and more likely that the HCA didn’t think management would be interested. The other nurses on the chat did nothing about the racism but when LN was unhappy about discussions regarding Upton she jumps in to defend him?

Completely agree. I don’t think anyone should be defending it because it’s indefensible. And, worst case scenario, it could impact not only her case but several more like it. A lot of decent people have backed SP and they must be reeling from this. Will it drag SM’s name through the mud - that they are supporting a woman who seems to hold racist views, possibly even stuck with appealing this on her behalf? Will it impact the Darlington nurses’ case if this ruling goes against SP, on the basis that she was the harasser, not the harassed (I don’t think they rest of the evidence proves this, but who knows). It could certainly impact high-profile people’s willingness to lend support to them and other women in similar positions, in case there are skeletons in their closets, meaning some might not find the backing to take action. So many women on these pages and elsewhere have worked so hard to give gc feminism a voice that is both factual and compassionate, in a way that often amazes me. I don’t want that to be taken away, for our calls to make women’s voices heard to be portrayed as hard right hatred. All it needs is Trump to lend his support to SP! I hope none of this sounds too doom and gloom and I know her personal case remains very winnable. Hopefully her relationship with her daughter is ok. I hope she gets the result we need. I stand with that. But I can’t stand alongside cruel, dehumanising ‘jokes’, no matter how privately they were meant to be expressed.

Would I share jokes like that? No. Am I shocked that many people would? Also no.

The role of jokes in "isms" and radicalisation is interesting. I was listening to a podcast about the Christchurch mosque shooting the other day and the guy was talking about how, as he sees it, a lot of right wing extremism has arisen out of places like 4Chan where extremist views are presented as jokes. It is quite insidious and you see this in many areas, not just right wing extremism. Of course one that is very relevant to all of us here "TERF is a slur". As TRAs say - these aggressive words and placards are "just jokes". "Bring back witch burning...JK [just kidding? JK Rowling?]". It's a joke...but is it? Not to excuse that SP shared the racist jokes but that this is a bigger conversation and she is very far from an outlier in doing something like this.

I think it's quite easy to dehumanise people with humour and deny to yourself that is what you're doing. You know you're not a racist/extremist/whatever so can tell yourself you're just sharing a risque joke that you find funny. I hope SP has been able to reflect on that and acknowledge the climate it contributes to. It's a fine line that imo she crossed with some of those jokes.

And would be jealous if Sandie were to receive a pay out from this tribunal.

This has been playing on my mind all night i have woken up three times and this racism thing was my first thought.. however - I still stand with Sandie Peggie!!

And she provided screenshot of the jokes with her laughing emoji edited out? And spoke with previous witness over lunch?
These are not credible witnesses or trustworthy. People who cannot recall and people who provide contemporaneous notes that appear to have been written long after the fact..plus the allegations of endangering patients that are not backed up.

Vs. Sandi shared a deeply unfunny joke. It used racist language. It was one post shared in a group where she felt she would not be judged. I think someone said this was a few years back?

@BeLemonNow you talk about 'on balance'. Puzzled that the 'joke' sharing in a private group balances out the lies and frauds by NHSF and Dr Upton. For me it's a reminder of how poor the case against Sandie is and the TRA assumptions about GC views. That these must be only held by horrible bigoted people.

I also woke up thinking about this and have skim read the thread from where I was last night.

A PP pointed out that it looks like the message sent that JR says proves SP is racist was 1x screenshot of 10 jokes. (Could be wrong but assuming that’s right).

Racism, in my view, is more than this. The jokes are certainly an indicator towards holding views that are unpleasant, but not a smoking gun.

Her 30 years career without incident. The fact the bacon comment is seemingly misattributed, and the fact that despite claiming other instances of racism none have been produced, direct my thinking down the line that this was an inappropriate post in a wholesale inappropriate work chat.

There isn’t always a deeper subtext to everything. We all sometimes say or post things that we wish we could take back, or look bad through someone else’s eyes but you don’t see it until later. I don’t disagree she should have known in the face of it that these jokes were not good things to post. But without deeper and more consistent evidence of her views being racist I’m not going to condemn her on the basis of one post in one private chat at one moment in her life.

Mainly because she’s human. Humans fuck up.

Was there a run up to SP posting the 'jokes' , do we know what the conversation was beforehand?

Read this on Twitter and sums up how I feel about it: "The purpose of the character assassination of Sandie Peggie isn't to change the outcome of the tribunal - it's to smear her so people won't use her as a figurehead afterwards to continue the fight, & to deter other complainants. It's political. So why is the judge allowing it?"

This is how I feel — it’s turned into a smear campaign. It doesn’t feel relevant or that credible. I’d like to focus on the original legal case, and for the potential racist attitude or behaviour to be treated separately. I’m not sure what it has to do with not being able to access a single sex changing area.

And that isn’t me excusing it either — but I do feel it’s conflating the case.

Sandie being grilled over comments on a 7yr old message thread. As if over 80% + of the population hasn't said, shared or commented on something inappropriate over the years in their lives.

This is a typical smear campaign because fife and JR have literally nothing else and they are desperate.

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter what her views are, what she's shared in a private group (which the others were engaging with I might add) or what she thinks, she should NOT be forced to share a changing room with a bloke. It's literally as simple as that. That is what this case is about.

JR is pathetic and her whole manner and behaviour during the trial has shown exactly what she is and just how desperate they are. Same for Fife and the way they have handled the suspension and everything that has followed. Fife are that desperate they have literally thrown others under the bus (without them knowing it) If LN thinks she's coming out of this looking better, she's seriously mistaken. Engaging in chat content, laughing at inappropriate jokes and then revealed she broke patient confidentiality. She didn't think that one through and Fife didn't have any hesitation throwing her under the bus, just so a bit of mud stuck with Sandie. None of their witnesses are credible and have all been exposed as having a vendetta against Sandie.

NHS Fife are pathetic and it shows just what a toxic employer they really are.

I'm not sure that's a recent or a 4Chan thing, its maybe amplified by 4Chan. My children had some really shitty "jokes" aimed at them from the moment they joined primary school, similar as the Polish kids and the boy from South Korea, clearly jokes and comments they heard in their families. On the two occasions I brought it up with the (now retired) headmistress it was waved away as "just banter" with the implication I was missing a sense of humour. The mother of one of the worst kids in this respect shares every fecking "just be kind" meme that goes round the internet on FB.

I think this is a great post, but if also seems to demonstrate the bind SP is in, and the extent to which Class pays a role in this case.

Breadth and depth of vocabulary and talking seriously about issues in a way which Steel Mans are not signifiers of a working class person. “Weirdo” is shorthand for long descriptors of the dynamic. In addition to which, this wasn’t really a conversation about DU. If someone asked me on WhatsApp what I thought of DU or what my problem was, rather than answering pages of caveated clauses and sub-clauses, maybe I would use something more pithy. With reflection I might answer “He’s a man”, but on the hoof “Weirdo” could suffice.

Totally agree. I wonder how many others in the group forwarded the message. How many laughed?

This is an attempt to sully Sandie’s good character and 30 years of unblemished work record. She was cleared of any wrong-doing. It is an attempt to deflect and distract from the issues under question … whataboutery!

I am sure most of us in our deep dark past have done something unwise and at which we would now cringe if it came under public scrutiny. None of this makes Sandie a wicked person and the villain of the piece. I hope, that on reflection, she is horrified that she was part of collective inappropriate ‘humour’. Unlike Dr Upton and his cohort, who continue to maintain it is right to expect women to undress in front of men (who like to wear lippy and dress in frocks) and who continue to defend male privilege.

I haven't seen any posts that 'edge towards' this view. It has been repeatedly said by posters with every gradation of disapproval of Peggie's remarks/jokes that they are irrelevant to the issue of her right to single-sex spaces.

It is just that any racism on her part is (a) intrinsically awful and (b) extremely damaging in terms of public reactions to the case.

Yesterday's evidence was just awful, disgusting. The remarks themselves were disgusting, the bitter and distorted way in which they were singled out by the witnesses was disgusting, and the fact that NHS Fife had instructed their advocate to resort to such 'tangential' (in the words of the judge) mudslinging was disgusting.

Posters are naturally responding to these cesspit developments in the case, but I don't think any poster has changed their attitude towards the right to single-sex spaces.

Does SP even need to be a credible witness? Fife and Dr U don’t deny that Dr U was using the changing room, and the law is that single sex changing rooms must be available in the workplace, she wasn’t suspended for racism, racism doesn’t equal transphobia, and they haven’t managed to show any transphobic messages even though there was the opportunity for her to share transphobic content based on the other messages about drag etc in the chat. Let’s not forget that Dr U claims he’s a ‘biological woman’ under oath when he clearly isn’t, so he’s not particularly credible either.

Thing is, NHS Fife are using this to make Sandie look bad and of course it makes her look bad, that content was genuinely horrible. But it also shows up the NHS Fife culture and it is frankly terrifying. I cannot imagine receiving those 'jokes' and not replying to say 'Hang on a minute, that's out of order, people are dying' or whatever. But more to the point, I cannot imagine receiving those 'jokes' at all. I genuinely don't know anyone who would send those jokes to me because they absolutely know what my response would be. I can think of quite a few people I know or have known who might share them elsewhere though. For a group to have those kinds of things being shared, and for not one person to comment, there must be a culture that says it's ok. And that culture clearly spreads quite widely. That is hugely upsetting and distressing and I don't think Fife can or should ignore it. But given how shit they are I wouldn't be surprised if they do. Fife may think this helps them, I'm not sure that 'Look, Sandie is racist, and was in a group with a load of our people sharing racist jokes' makes them look any better.

Whilst awful, I really don't see it as relevant to the case. I understand points people have made about credibility and so on but I don't think this destroys Sandie's credibility although of course will harm her reputation. I am sad to see these 'jokes', they really are horrendous, but agree with those who say no one should have to be a perfect victim and regardless of views, we all deserve access to single sex spaces at our most vulnerable. And actually I think Fife raising this does further suggest an element of harassment (not sure if that is the right legal term) in that they have clearly gone scouring for anything they can on her, as was suggested when KS was off speaking to potential witnesses when she wasn't even supposed to be carrying out the investigation. They're clearly aware of the culture, why haven't they tried to address it other than hounding one nurse?

The NHS employs thousands of ordinary people. You'd be astonishingly naive to think they are all above being racist. I've not heard racism- but I'm white so that's no surprise- but I've heard very offensive sexism (from doctors), nurses usually give male doctors an easier time of it than female & some staff treat people with dementia or learning disabilities badly. I have seen poor care & outright lying from nurses, and incompetence from doctors (and yes I reported the incidents I witnessed). I've never seen or heard of staff stealing from patients but I'd assume that will happen. I've worked with some pretty unpleasant nurses and been called a lier when I reported bullying.

SP is racist but DU said he'd sexually assault women (by doing an intimate exam they didn't consent to). LN clearly has a vendetta against SP and is also racist, homophobic, transphobic (jokes about drag), has not respect for patient confidentiality and is an unreliable witness. LN comes across as being a bit thick and motivated by spite.

SP being racist is unpleasant and may impact the level of damages she gets but I don't think will sway which way the case goes. Racists have rights too.

It definitely seems like a smear campaign. Possibly to deter others coming forward.
I just hope Sandies other witnesses don't decide to back out. They must be questioning what they have gotten themselves into.

I can't get my head around a so called friend being so two faced, and she didn't exactly come out of it squeaky clean either.

I'd guess Sandie will explain them away in a she certainly wouldn't treat someone in the department differently.
They were jokes someone sent to her and she forwarded not really thinking about the racist element, dark humour faceless disaster jokes.

But if Sandie loses and it goes to appeal will they not be able to argue that Fife tried to blacken her name rather than stick to the issues and the law?

My ex-colleague from Bangladesh is one of the most racist people I know towards people from Pakistan. She is racist and Sandie Peggie is racist too. I have to admit, my support and respect for her has almost gone. I think she has the right to change in a female only space but it honestly feels like she has multiple bigoted views and this is showing her form.

I would be very interested to know if anyone has reported LN and others on the chat to NHS Fife or the NMC - anyone seen anything in the media?

Imho Upton is definitely a weirdo.

We don’t need to have pages of posts reasoning about racist jokes.

they were inexcusable.

women have the right to ask that their single sex CR is single sex and should have to go through suspension processes to request this.

It’s also definitely been designed to distract from the misogyny of NHS Fife.