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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #43

1000 replies

nauticant · 25/07/2025 15:21

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

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39
ErrolTheDragon · 26/07/2025 22:42

MustBeThursday · 26/07/2025 22:15

Ah, I read Just One Damned Thing After Another last year (randomly picked up as part of a multi buy offer) and meant to carry on with the series! Thanks for the reminder!

I’d not heard of this book but, having lived in Thirsk the idea of it having a university makes the premise of the story intriguing.

Haffiana · 26/07/2025 22:42

My favourite Terry Pratchett quote:

'Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.'

RIP Tezza.

LoudlyProudlyHorrid · 26/07/2025 22:43

I don't have the patience for gardening so I forage. I add foraged stuff to gin and call it a tincture. I attempt to ferment foraged stuff to make alcohol but I frequently forget about it and have to approach with caution and extreme trepidation.

I make teas - someone up thread mentioned fireweed.
I have a little witchy corner of the kitchen with all my teas, 'tinctures' and experiments in.
I don't make jam but I do make a very excellent elderberry syrup that keeps winter bugs at bay.

NebulouslyContemporaneous · 26/07/2025 22:44

myplace · 26/07/2025 22:11

Sandie handled that messenger chat from Lindsay so well. I’d have been spitting feathers! And she spelled her name wrongly, despite it being there to copy!

That's strange. I've always used 'spitting feathers' to mean 'very thirsty'. But I've just checked on google and apparently it is used both for being thirsty and for being angry.

Can't help thinking that 'thirsty' makes more sense (cos a moth full of feathers would make you v thirsty). Perhaps the 'angry' meaning came later bcs of the similarity with 'spitting with rage'

NotAtMyAge · 26/07/2025 22:45

KateShugakIsALegend · 26/07/2025 22:16

Also check out Dana Stabenow's series featuring...

Kate Shugak!

And her Eye of Isis series, and the Silk and Song trilogy.

I'm ahead of you there (love your username by the way) I discovered Dana Stabenow some years ago and have most of her Kate Shugak novels either in hardcopy or on my old Nook e-reader. Haven't come across the others ... goes off to explore.

Waitwhat23 · 26/07/2025 22:46

For things to make with raspberries, can I suggest Cranachan -

https://scottishscran.com/traditional-scottish-cranachan-recipe/

SqueakyDinosaur · 26/07/2025 22:47

I make jam (just made a batch of strawberry and can confirm that it's a bastard to set). One of my favourite ones is made with bullace plums, the little wild ones that grow in hedges.

I also love Sayers and Wodehouse, and history including industrial stuff - inherited from my dad I think. Large parts of my Midland childhood were spent being taken to see various bits of the Industrial Revolution - Ironbridge, Arkwright's mills, etc.

I've never got on with Pratchett and I don't know why. I like the idea of it but I think maybe I needed to discover it younger?

But I do love this very short fanfic, mashing Sayers and Pratchett together: https://archiveofourown.org/works/3772513

Death in Denver - Nineveh_uk - Lord Peter Wimsey - Dorothy L. Sayers [Archive of Our Own]

An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works

https://archiveofourown.org/works/3772513

Needspaceforlego · 26/07/2025 22:49

@nauticant at least its slowed down to give us all a chance to catch up.

dunBle · 26/07/2025 22:51

DustyWindowsills · 26/07/2025 08:04

I've been sending @BezMills the occasional ♥️ as well. No harm in showing appreciation. 🙂

Yep, now that we don't have the LOL reaction, it's my way of signalling that it's another great comment that's made me cackle, rather than filling up the thread posting emoji reactions. And as yet another Pratchett fan on the thread, I'm also picturing the fifer as a Feegle.

Interestingly, the Pratchett book that I'm put in mind of in this saga is Small Gods, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, like "The Turtle Moves" we have an apparently unsayable truth that BU is male (does this make NHS Fife Omnia and JR Vorbis?). And secondly, I can't remember the exact wording but there's a bit about how sometimes the faithful aren't actually believing in the god itself, but the bits of the religion that surround the god - the priests and rituals and buildings etc. It strikes me that in a similar way, transwomen aren't identifying with what it's actually like to be a woman, but just the random stuff that's become associated with being one, like the clothes and hair and make-up and so on.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 26/07/2025 22:53

ForAllWomen · 26/07/2025 22:26

Just spent two hours watching Michael Foran commenting on the IT evidence. God to be there in person.

It’s compelling context - shows how impactful this evidence. And also shows - that if we believe the evidence - there is no technical reason for the dates changing - the only other option is human editing.

To go to those lengths to lie to a Tribunal halfway through it - on something that was voluntary - he didn’t have to give up the phone at all.

Going to these voluntary lengths to present false evidence to the tribunal could be viewed as sociopathic…..

People with the condition might seem charming and charismatic at first, at least on the surface, but they generally find it difficult to understand other people’s feelings. They often:
break rules or laws
behave aggressively or impulsively
feel little guilt for harm they cause others
use manipulation, deceit, and controlling behavior

Anyhow - I have some share tokens to access Forans substack and his previous post court updates so do DM me if you’d like to spend hours getting more immersed in the case. Promise to delete all data after and keep it in strictest confidence.

Clearly, i’m a buffoon, @ForAllWomen.

I’d love a share token, if that’s ok, but I don’t know how to PM you? 🤦🏻‍♀️

Like i say…i’m a buffoon.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/07/2025 22:54

SqueakyDinosaur · 26/07/2025 22:47

I make jam (just made a batch of strawberry and can confirm that it's a bastard to set). One of my favourite ones is made with bullace plums, the little wild ones that grow in hedges.

I also love Sayers and Wodehouse, and history including industrial stuff - inherited from my dad I think. Large parts of my Midland childhood were spent being taken to see various bits of the Industrial Revolution - Ironbridge, Arkwright's mills, etc.

I've never got on with Pratchett and I don't know why. I like the idea of it but I think maybe I needed to discover it younger?

But I do love this very short fanfic, mashing Sayers and Pratchett together: https://archiveofourown.org/works/3772513

Oh that’s tantalising!😂

BriceNobeslovesMurielHeslop · 26/07/2025 22:54

Another2Cats · 26/07/2025 21:32

"Please excuse the less-than-feminist language, but Lindsay comes across as bit of a sanctimonious bitch, doesn’t she? "

I agree so much. From the Facebook chat reported in the first Times article linked above:

Lindsay: "Your daughter is gay and is therefore part of the LGBQT community and I wonder how she feels seeing her mum make such an issue about all this."

Sandie: "I'm so sorry for upsetting you Lindsay. It's a completely different issue altogether and nothing to do with being gay. Nicole is 100% in agreement and it is my gay married MP who has talked me into it and helping the lawyer."

Yes!! Horrible that Sandie ends up being the one to apologise on the thread! And to invoke her gay daughter? How dare she? I’m sure that some of the other women on the chat had their own thoughts on it.

DustyWindowsills · 26/07/2025 22:56

Jam? Nah. Can't cope with that much sugar. Same for cake. But I like fennel and celeriac. Wild fennel self-seeds in my garden, and right now the seeds are perfect. Intense liquorice flavour, perfect for pork, and they don't get stuck in your teeth like dried seeds do.

Otherwise, for me it's folk music, photography, dogs, woodwork, boats, linguistics and local history.

Needspaceforlego · 26/07/2025 23:00

@Another2Cats
Things to think about with the class element

I don't think any of the bosses who were in favour of Upton also using that changing room also used it. They were all pretty horrified at the idea of Pete being in there.

Exactly the same as the prisons the people who make decisions about prisons are unlikely to ever be an inmate or have family as inmates.

Similar to schools, lots of MPs and MSPs will opt for single sex education for their kids. Its not their daughters getting changed in open changing rooms with trans boys.

And lastly money to take it to court, few working class people could afford to take this to court, and certainly not fund it the way its been funded.
I keep repeating it but I am so so grateful to Sandies backer for funding this case. What an amazing person they are.

Waitwhat23 · 26/07/2025 23:00

I'm probably right in thinking also that there are a lot of Agatha Christie fans among the posters on this board. I adore Christie and some of NC's seemingly innocuous comments leading to a dramatic gotcha in court have a fabulous feel of Poirot gathering the suspects in the drawing room for the final reveal.

HappyNewTaxYear · 26/07/2025 23:01

Struggling to keep up with the thread but has the misgendering of Dr U by a confused old lady patient been mentioned yet? At his previous rotation?

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 26/07/2025 23:03

HappyNewTaxYear · 26/07/2025 23:01

Struggling to keep up with the thread but has the misgendering of Dr U by a confused old lady patient been mentioned yet? At his previous rotation?

Yes. If turns out that the patient called him ‘son’ a few times.
So, he reported her (i don’t know to whom??), and also his female colleague for not supporting him.

The ego on this bastard…

Peregrina · 26/07/2025 23:04

I am definitely a Christie fan. I don't make jam, I don't like it. I knit. I have also just taken delivery of Terf Island and had to put my knitting down in favour of it.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 26/07/2025 23:12

Bloody hell I've just spent today reading the Friday threads and finally caught up. @Boiledbeetle happy to report due to this I am still in my pyjamas. Also I sincerely love you for the Austin pastiche.

Thoughts in not particular order...

Pratchett. Huge fan. I think if he'd lived and maintained his faculties he'd have follwed the same path as many of us, initially #BeKind tolerance "of course we should treat them like women if that helps them fit in, it's not like they're going to be doing anything unreasonable like getting naked with full tackle in ladies changing rooms or sitting on women's commitees or competing in women's sports" to "holy shit they actually are getting naked with full tackle in ladies changing rooms and sitting on women's commitees and competing in women's sports!!!"

He had a huge ND/online/geek fanbase which means he also had a huge trans fanbase, he enjoyed talking to trans fans and back in the day when it all seemed a lot more innocent was entirely supportive of identities and pronouns. I'm pretty sure although he didn't write Cherry as trans initially, when he saw she resonated with that group and realising how she could be read that way, he didn't explicitly trans her but leant into it to allow that reading as well. And I don't fault him for that. It was a different time.

But I think his finely tuned sense of justice, his gentle love of the ridiculousness and wonderfulness of people in how we can be at the same time both totally stereotypical of our group and also a unique individual worth seeing and loving, and his anger at the overreach of power when it treats those people like things would have eventually forced him despite himself to puncture the GI bubble.

(This bit was in the paragraph above but it got too long and had to come out. So it's a bit of an aside. But what I see in STP's books is joy in the very banality of everyday lives because looked at closely it's all still humans doing the best they can and the love and care and value in those lives is not less just because it happens all the time. So I cannot see that he would have fallen into the trap of only seeing the stories of some types of people as important.)

It's such a shame he wasn't here because I think the captured geek troops of TRAs might not have ended up quite as Red Guard if his voice was still around.

Which leads to - I'll not say my favourite STP book because how can you ever have just one, but certainly the one I come back to again and again for what it says about people and power, especially in the Gender Wars - Small Gods.

Vorbis is one of the most terrifying characters I know. And even before this thread took a Prachett turn, my first thought on reading that Dr Upton (now in my headcanon forevermore Dr Update) had amended his "contempraneous" notes, a was this exchange from Small Gods:

Vorbis: "That which appears to our senses is not the fundamental truth. Things that are seen and heard and done by the flesh are mere shadows of a deeper reality. This is what you must understand as you progress in the Church.’

‘But at the moment, lord, I know only the trivial truth, the truth available on the outside,’ said Brutha. He felt as though he was at the edge of a pit.

‘That is how we all begin,’ said Vorbis kindly.

‘So did the Ephebians kill Brother Murduck?’ Brutha persisted. Now he was inching out over the darkness.

‘I am telling you that in the deepest sense of the truth they did. By their failure to embrace his words, by their intransigence, they surely killed him.’

‘But in the trivial sense of the truth,’ said Brutha, picking every word with the care an inquisitor might give to his patient in the depths of the Citadel, ‘in the trivial sense, Brother Murduck died, did he not, in Omnia, because he had not died in Ephebe, had been merely mocked, but it was feared that others in the Church might not understand the, the deeper truth, and thus it was put about that the Ephebians had killed him in, in the trivial sense, thus giving you, and those who saw the truth of the evil of Ephebe, due cause to launch a – a just retaliation.’

They walked past a fountain. The deacon’s steel-shod staff clicked in the night.

‘I see a great future for you in the Church,’ said Vorbis, eventually.

In Dr Update's mind I suspect he believed he was justified in lying because it made clear a "truth" about SP which otherwise might be missed.

Which the brings me on to Dr Update's angels, who swept to his side to defend and protect him (anyone remember that awful dance performance with the beatific trans figure protected by a troop of self sacrificing pawns?).

I've been thinking for a while that these angry TRAs and allies, the ones who are so clearly gleeful at finding a TERF "in the wild" to unmask, denouce and cast out (I'm sure many women on here have made a gently GC or even just gender sceptical comment in self-defined progressive society and know exactly what I'm describing) see themselves as this era's equivalent to people like Miep Gies and Oscar Schindler - people who risked their own safety to save victims of the Nazi's hatred.

It never occurs to them that those heroes were never part of a baying mob - in fact they worked in deathly secrecy exactly because the mob was on the other side. As we note so often here, the TRAs seems to inhabit an alternative reality where they are standing up for the powerless and voiceless against the might of the establishment, totally oblivious to the irony that with the weight of the police, the educational establishment, the national broadcaster, most of the media outlets, the largest social media sites, the media regulator, the medical and legal political wings and the cultural and entertainment establishment, they are the establishment, and that far from making a brave stand against injustice, they are taking absolutely no risk in their "activism", and are in reality using the weight of the establishment to force their own agenda.

ForAllWomen · 26/07/2025 23:13

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 26/07/2025 22:53

Clearly, i’m a buffoon, @ForAllWomen.

I’d love a share token, if that’s ok, but I don’t know how to PM you? 🤦🏻‍♀️

Like i say…i’m a buffoon.

Edited

If you click the three dots to the right at top of post there are three dots - click in there and you can PM that username. However to save you the bother I have PM’d you so on your profile there might be an alert (top right of any page) and you can PM there.

DrBlackbird · 26/07/2025 23:17

I don’t know where this exchange between SP and this woman comes from or why the exchange takes place but Lindsey (next witness?) sounds like a smug self righteous cow. It is absolutely incredible how low some women are prepared to go to demonstrate their fawning hand maiden status. Spitting feathers indeed.

murasaki · 26/07/2025 23:19

I put my dad on to Pratchett when my friend lent me Mort when I was ten and he picked it up from the table where I'd left it. He became a total fan. When I graduated, my first job was in a bookshop, and he came to do a signing. All staff were allowed to get a copy of Carpe Jugulam and meet him and get it signed before we opened the doors to the hordes queueing round the corner. I told him about dad and how the book was his birthday present, and he was lovely and dad was most pleased to receive a copy signed 'from one Terry to another'. Lovely man.

moto748e · 26/07/2025 23:23

Oh that's lovely, @murasaki ! I've never read Pratchett, and, as with Jane Austen, I fear it's too late now!

FlirtsWithRhinos · 26/07/2025 23:26

Other than the screed above:

Jam - no. Occasional chutney.
Can knit and crochet but rarely do.
Cakes - yes but don't like to talk about it.
Chickens - absolutely not. No hobbies that could lead to death by neglect.
Gardening - yes. (Plant deaths do not count.)
IT stuff - yep. I would definitely have done a better job of faking evidence than Dr Update.
STP - see screed above
AC - not since I was a kid but this thread makes me think I should try...
Chronicles of St Mary's - read quite a few and enjoyed them but found them a bit samey after a while, and the narrator (forget her name) became annoyingly Mary Sue

Has anyone mentioned Jasper Fforde?

Needspaceforlego · 26/07/2025 23:26

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 26/07/2025 23:03

Yes. If turns out that the patient called him ‘son’ a few times.
So, he reported her (i don’t know to whom??), and also his female colleague for not supporting him.

The ego on this bastard…

And remember the female colleague was a student Doctor not even a qualified doctor.

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