NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #43

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

To me the most important part of phonegate was that inexplicably the edit dates on the Dr. Upton's contemporaneous notes came before these notes were created.

As it's Google these notes are stored up in the cloud live-live across multiple sites, and IT experts could not replicate or explain how such an alleged error could have occured. One was so shocked a "!" was used even though that may have been inappropriate court punctuation.

My Conclusion: very likely Dr. Upton manipulated note dates to make them look contemporaneous and build a case against Sandie r.e. patient neglect.

As well., Dr. Upton was also unwilling to meet with expert witness with mobile even though this seemed to be the only person managing to use Dr Upton's preferred pronouns. V suspect.

Not a techie so please correct if wrong.

I have also been rereading Terry Pratchett's discworld books recently. I last read them as a teenager. I am a terrible at jam making.

Now I’m starving. 😫

Edited to remove exclamation mark.

Sad times.

I bet they are all very cautious about his contemporaneous note taking on his personal device. Or, hopefully he has been told that he has played this trick once and it has caused issues ‘so keep your head down laddie and do the job that the taxpayers pay you for. No more crying and bunking off shifts because of stress? ‘

There will be some departments that will have put a block on him joining them. It is a poison chalice to have him on your rota. I wonder if some nurses applied for department transfers once their saw the name Upton.

Jolyon Jog-on had a good track record in losing. Is that why he is no longer practicing but wanting to be a media celeb?

So in brief he [probably] edited the edit dates to make them look earlier but didn't realise he hadn't and couldn't edit the creation dates? Or did realise but hoped nobody would dig that deep?

Jolyon the foxbeater was a tax barrister. He doesn't appear to actually know anything about equality law.

Re all the focus on DSDs by JR…

The evolution of the transgenderism argument is interesting as it’s gone from openly transsexual / fetish to (sex) dysphoria to gender dysphoria with gender still understood as a social construct to genitals don’t matter to it’s not a dysphoria and feelings about one’s authentic gendered self equates to or is more important than sex.

Each iteration, however, pushes against women steadfastly pointing to biological reality (which has impacted us all our lives) of our sexed bodies. And all the twist and turn in their claims seems to have led us to the most recent iteration with the MRA - masquerading as TRA - as trying, however they can, to claim a biological argument for themselves. Biology is the one material fact that has enabled women some affordances in arguing for SSSs.

If it was possible to search through FWR threads at a meta level, I’m sure we could trace the change from being told to #bekind! to being told that TW are biological women. Thus, we arrive at that ‘biological sex is complicated and not binary’ argument because a) DSDs and b) lady brains. This is where we are now, aided and abetted it seems, by the medical community of whom far too many wish to find a ‘biological’ reason for transness. Clearly this position won’t stick as it is not possible for one sex to become another sex but it makes me wonder what will be the next iteration of argument?

I get why TRAs try to argue this position but it is despicable that women such as JR are so willing to throw all of womankind under the bus simply to serve her goal of winning a court case.

So he really is just spouting shit then as it’s not an area of expertise

Just listened, IT'S AMAZING.

We need a second verse.

I just had a look and it says only available to those who live there

I'm still hopelessly behind but this alledged incident stood out where Upton expected the medical student to provide him with support. He was the senior person here, he should be looking out for the student. The student shouldn't be expected to "support" him. It reads as if he expects everyone to pander to him.

What support did he expect? Elspeth Pitt type support when he sobs on her shoulder? Kate Searle type support when reporting a hate crime is suggested?

I sincerely hope there was no suggestion of challenging the elderly patient - who given it was a psychiatry placement, most likely had dementia.

For me, the !!! moment came when JB said to CE: "...21aug edit date, slightly diff colour, and creation on 26oct. Only way to make it look that way is the version list is superimposed..." (quote from TT). I am still 😮at that.

Does this mean the notes were manipulated as images (ie with Photoshop or another image editing program), or the metadata was tampered with? The more accounts I read about what was done with the notes, the less I understand.

The Main Character Syndrome seems strong with this one.

From my observations she looks quite competent and pays very close attention to what is being said. She’s also having to err towards the “dirty tricks playbook “ imo because every time Fife get a witness on the stand their evidence counts against Fife’s case instead of supporting it?! The last few days her tactics have been grim but she’s not going down without a fight - a lesser barrister might have capitulated by now I suspect. If you’re paying for defence then that’s what you want. Unfortunately you can play your best game as a professional and still lose.

@ThatCyanCat not sure hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will come and reexplain.

Freezer pectin is your friend for no-cook jam making. The powder versions are only intermittently available in the UK.

However, although I haven’t used this for freezer jam, Certo reckons you can use their bottled pectin. NB: their recipes are heavy on the sugar.

https://certo.co.uk/raspberry-or-blackcurrent-freezer-jam/

@justabaker I copied and pasted these spellings ang job titles from whichever newspaper published them with a headline about a list of witnesses still to come. I googled and saw they were correct (just from linkedin, didnt search for anything else)

I’m guessing that one of the online viewing rooms has been reserved for politician and civil servant observers. If John Swinney, Neil Grey and Carol Potter arent all glued to the screens then I’m damn sure someone from each of their offices is on their behalf… Ditto some from Westminster….

ETA SP’s complaint could have gone to John Swinney himself and still she’d have been suspended on zero grounds

@InterrobangsArePureBias thanks I wasn't any using pectin as it was blackcurrants. I'll remember that for other fruit.

It was in the words of a family member "nice as long as you don't want to spread it". It had definitely set. Alas my thermostat broke just before it reach setting temp!

Thankfully my 90 year old grandad is still making the family jam, but I dread the day when I will be expected to take over.

I've never got the hang of Photoshop or Gimp but the evidence in court gave me a lightbulb moment that this must be what "layers" are in those editing programmes. Presumably he took just the date element from a different screenshot and layered it over another. But in doing so he slightly changed or intensified the font colour (as well as entirely misunderstanding how Keep Notes works!)

I read somewhere that the judge (Big Sond) had made a deliberation about pronouns at some point on Friday - is that true? I can’t find it on TT or Twitter.

Thanks in advance!

Ah, the reexamination thing will be what I was getting confused with. Thanks both! Come to think of it, my version would likely often make "no questions" the winning strategy for evidence in chief and hence very boring tribunals...

It is ridiculous that, as far I can see, there hasn't been a story about the Peggie case in the Guardian since

"Nurse cleared of misconduct in trans doctor changing room row in Scotland"

on 16th July. Ten days ago! Even the hopeless Indy has covered the news in the last few days. The paper I have read and supported most of life has completely lost its way.