NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #43

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

They (NHS Fife) accepted as good evidence an unrecorded Teams call in which the person sending the data was offline for minutes at a time?

Was Dr Upton walking around with a glowing halo around his head? Because otherwise it should have been ‘look, we need to stop this now and either do this in person or when your Wi-Fi is more stable.’

As JR introduced DSDs in her cross with MC presumably NC can also question MC when it's her turn, to demolish any suggestion that they make sex a spectrum, that Upton probably doesn't have one and even if he does he's still male. I personally think this is irrelevant and would just waste time. Or the panel would be able to check DSDs themselves now they're in evidence.

I've never met so many Pratchett fans like myself in one place!

@Waitwhat23 Granny Weatherwax is my hero! And I'd bet Nanny's broomstick (to be potentially won back in a game of Cripple Mr Onion if the other side are cheating) that she'd have no truck with gender woo.

Here's the link to the TT thread of the NHS Fife IT bod evidence.

I was reading out quotes to Mr B (himself a big IT boffin of good reputation). At one point he told me to stop because we were hammering down the M5 at the time and laughing so hard was bad for his concentration and thus a safety problem.

archive.ph/3XBjD

I thought the Fife IT guy gave BU instructions about how to download things? TT:

PD - DU produced the screenshots, I produced assistence
CE - you provided writtten guidance for DU, DU produced, you gave ?
PD - empty table,

and

PD - AW and manager with explanation and for a steer, I queried if forensic or not, wasn't going that way, time factors around leave, scheduled another call. Created a guide for DU how you can take down and record, i would witness it done live. Created blank form to record

Here is the info on hate crimes in Scotland. It still requires there to be a crime - it does include "verbal abuse including name calling" and "harrassment" and "being targeted because of a dislike or prejudice of your....transgender identity" (note it doesn't say anything about someone simply objecting to men in the ladies) but I doubt what Sandie said would meet the threshold. I just think that people bandy the "hate crime" accusation around when someone is a bit upset.
https://www.scotland.police.uk/advice-and-information/hate-crime/what-is-hate-crime/

Indeed. Searle claimed she'd never have known he wasn't a real woman if he hadn't told her. (Even JR has stated that it's not obvious he's a man).
So presumably Upton didn't pass in MC's eyes if she had 'wondered'. Maybe some people at Fife still have fairly decent eyesight

Pratchett-based user names abound as well; I've had a good few myself over the years.

Mumsnet is a haven for Pratchett, Wodehouse and Georgette Heyer readers. We may be vipers, but we're vipers with a sense of humour.

Was there any reason by NHSFife IT bod couldn’t take the downloads from the phone himself?
I assume he’s in Fife so shouldn’t be far from DU.
why did it need to be done via watching on Teams?

Has Upton left the trust now perhaps? And didn’t want to travel? I’m sure he will have put obstacles in the way of a F2F meeting.

Based on my experiences, I can imagine plenty of 'misgendering' from patients, who in those situations are not particularly mindful of their p's and q's

Love Pratchett. So much several pets are named after him and his creations. I’ve also had many usernames themed around his work (and may be ready for another).

Granny and Nanny would have no truck with gender nonsense. Far too rooted to reality and what actually is.

Some of the trans stuff reminds me of Terry’s elves. Mendacious, vicious, and ruthless. But they charm people and get in on false pretences. But when the glamour (be kind) breaks you see what really is and it’s not pretty.

Somebody previously has said DU is now at the other hospital in Fife.
And the IT guy could travel - most places in the Central belt wouldn’t take long to travel to if IT guy not in Fife. A nice few hours out the office/home office for IT guy.

Give your head a shake. No of course no reflection will occur. The people who fall for genderism in the first place (wholly signed up cheerleaders not just the haven’t fully thought it through people), have dug themselves deep into the gender hole and will not attempt to climb out of it. Medicine is spectacularly good at repeating the same mistakes ad nauseum because the inclination is always to deny, obfuscate and sweep under the carpet. See maternity scandals.

Unlike the aviation industry that forensically dissects every air accident precisely to avoid making the mistake again.

The shopping list screenshot was given in evidence as another unrelated file which had suffered from the “catastrophic collapse event” in Google’s servers that was unnoticed worldwide and only affected DU’s phone.

I expect it is that no other barrister will tell them what they want to hear, or put forward their defence they want because they know they will lose.

the “catastrophic collapse event” in Google’s servers that was unnoticed worldwide and only affected DU’s phone.

😂

I mentioned this to my very techie DH and he confirmed that when there is such an incident it is all over the IT industry extremely fast and JB would have known all about it - all blindingly obvious but there you go

Some of the trans stuff reminds me of Terry’s elves. Mendacious, vicious, and ruthless. But they charm people and get in on false pretences. But when the glamour (be kind) breaks you see what really is and it’s not pretty.

That is very true!

Upper class people often do a first degree then decide to go into medicine or law and so they do another degree. JR did a History degree at Aberdeen before going to Cambridge to read law. And I was goggling Jim Swire, the father of one of the Lockerbie bombing victims - he read Natural Sciences at Cambridge, worked at the BBC then trained to be a CoE vicar at Ridley College Cambridge but left to read Medicine at Birmingham to become a doctor.

It all sounds exhausting to me. My parents funded me for my one and only degree but then I was expected to get a job.

Granny Weatherwax is firmly of the belief that nice and good are in no way connected, because giving people what they want without question is not kind at all.

A friend of a friend who is very ‘be kind’ and likes to lecture women about it, once met PTerry at a convention - by all accounts my favourite author openly despised him to the point of it all getting rather uncomfortable. I like to think TP felt the same way as Weatherwax. 😁

I also make jam, and am now considering reading some DL Sayer as a result of these threads.

Lastly, my husband is an IT consultant whose company name is his initials and specialty, so according to Fifer he’s a very trustworthy chap - I thoroughly enjoyed the Jim Berwick commentary yesterday! 😂

Another Pratchett fan here!

Identifying as a bread-baking, jam-making cook here.

No jam, but I do make 95% of my own bread and beer.

I think they have him that leeway because they are all pretty confident he lied. This way he digs himself further into the shit basket and they can say nuffink to do with us guv, honest.

A couple of things to add:

JB had set up a meeting with DU prior to this to talk through what he would like to see from the phone.

To prepare he asked to be provided with the make and model of DUs phone and the apps he uses so he could ensure he was fully conversant. DU flat out refused to provide this — very suspicious on its own. C team cancelled the meeting as no point. DU then forced NHS Fife into 6th best option.

The screenshots were not provided as screenshots to the court but were embedded in a document— making it impossible for JB to verify any kind of meta data.

The log, which was produced by DU and reviewed by PD was attached to PDs witness statement as if he had created the log himself.

That would be a neat trick, limiting what your oppo can ask by what you've chosen to ask 😀
Re-examination however can only come out of what has been asked in cross examination.