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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #43

1000 replies

nauticant · 25/07/2025 15:21

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

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39
rebmacesrevda · 26/07/2025 09:52

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 26/07/2025 09:48

I tend to read about the same event/issue from several sources and the truth will be somewhere in the middle.

I agree. I also find it's as much about individual journalists (who write for various papers) as the media outlets. I never used to pay much notice to who wrote a given article, but I do now and I'm starting to work out which ones have real integrity.

GnomeDePlume · 26/07/2025 09:53

My take on why someone would want to set this going is that he didn't expect it to go this far. He wanted the 'mean nurse' to be told off, made to apologise in public.

What he wants is to be special. He probably went through childhood being a special, clever boy. He got into medical school - what a clever boy. Then he got there and he wasn't special. He was one of many. No longer the cleverest person in the room.

Being 'the only trans doctor in the hospital' made him special. Anyone who challenged or threatened this was to be punished.

Unfortunately for him, senior staff with their own agendas picked this up. He can't/won't say not to take it further. He's enjoying the attention too much.

If anyone is looking for a weekend read about a witch hunt I can recommend The Franchise Affair by Josephine Tey.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 26/07/2025 09:54

CatOnAHotRadiator · 26/07/2025 09:15

out of curiosity, you trusty vipers, which news sources do you consider as still impartial. Not just on GI issues but in other matters that I know less about. I don’t trust the BBC, Mail, Guardian, or independent to provide fair reporting. I am very conscious of what we discussed previously on the thread about understanding that reporting could be equally skewed on matters I know nothing about. So if I cannot trust the reporting on one area, I shouldn’t trust anything.

I can accept a slant in a political direction, but not outright misrepresentation.

I am or rather was very much a Guardian reader until they started losing their marbles & I do still read some of the decent stuff like Jonathan Freedland & Felicity Cloake.
I am currently on a cheapie introductory 3 month sub to the Daily Telegraph & it's not half bad. The opinion pieces are laughable right-wing batshit but the news reporting is comprehensive & the coverage of science etc is well done. There is literally much more to read than in the Grauniad.

rebmacesrevda · 26/07/2025 09:54

BezMills · 26/07/2025 09:37

Good point, handing back my "lassie badge" with greatest of respect!

Thought it was a lassie ticket? Do you get your fiver back, like the deposit return scheme?

Arran2024 · 26/07/2025 09:58

myplace · 26/07/2025 07:26

Disappointed to see the Independent article is as disingenuous as the BBC and Guardian. References the racism smear and airs only one sides concerns.

To be a hate crime there has to be a crime to start with, then the hate is on top. Is KS seriously suggesting that DP telling BU that she didnt think he should be there was an actual crime?

ickky · 26/07/2025 09:59

DCorMe · 26/07/2025 09:50

What a lovely photo of SP with her daughters and mum 🥰

Have you noticed how much better Sandie looks now?

She looked haunted back in February.

NebulouslyContemporaneous · 26/07/2025 10:00

I love the people who spell peaking as peeking. Conjures up images of nervous exploration of awful situations.
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExOW85dzFxdjE2MnA0dDd5ajNkNzM0NXJoaXh6dHkza2UwcXdwdXF4cCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/eXjBWmOciHnomanPbn/giphy.gif

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/eXjBWmOciHnomanPbn" width="480" height="331" style="" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/neonrated-neon-rated-enys-men-eXjBWmOciHnomanPbn">via GIPHY</a></p>

https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExOW85dzFxdjE2MnA0dDd5ajNkNzM0NXJoaXh6dHkza2UwcXdwdXF4cCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/eXjBWmOciHnomanPbn/giphy.gif

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 26/07/2025 10:03

GnomeDePlume · 26/07/2025 09:53

My take on why someone would want to set this going is that he didn't expect it to go this far. He wanted the 'mean nurse' to be told off, made to apologise in public.

What he wants is to be special. He probably went through childhood being a special, clever boy. He got into medical school - what a clever boy. Then he got there and he wasn't special. He was one of many. No longer the cleverest person in the room.

Being 'the only trans doctor in the hospital' made him special. Anyone who challenged or threatened this was to be punished.

Unfortunately for him, senior staff with their own agendas picked this up. He can't/won't say not to take it further. He's enjoying the attention too much.

If anyone is looking for a weekend read about a witch hunt I can recommend The Franchise Affair by Josephine Tey.

Love Josephine Tey! The Franchise Affair and Brat Farrar were two of my most re-read books in my youth!

SternlyMatthews · 26/07/2025 10:05

Faffertea · 26/07/2025 09:39

Sad times indeed.

I have 2 horsefly bites that have swollen up and so itchy they’ve been driving me crackers despite max dose anti histamines, steroid cream etc. I have found sticking a bag of frozen peas on them helped (other fruit and veg are available).

Hope you’re feeling better.

my horsefly tip: they are persistent , so making an improvised fly whisk out of a small branch, long grass, scarf, (anything!) & doing a lot of swishing can keep hungry ones at bay.

CheeseChamp · 26/07/2025 10:09

Just catching up on the end of yesterday with chromosome talk. I think that's potentially interesting and risky for JR, surely?

If they are trying to claim the variation of chromosomes means it is ohhh so complicated whether someone should be allowed in the FCR or not, well, how about we all agree (bear with me) that actually, yes, we would like chromosomes to determine this.

So anyone with funky chromosomes that correspond to female-kind-of biology is welcome in the ladies. Anyone who doesn't, isn't.

Suddenly, SP alleged question to DU about his chromosomes becomes rather reasonable, no?

NebulousDog · 26/07/2025 10:10

PrettyDamnCosmic · 26/07/2025 09:54

I am or rather was very much a Guardian reader until they started losing their marbles & I do still read some of the decent stuff like Jonathan Freedland & Felicity Cloake.
I am currently on a cheapie introductory 3 month sub to the Daily Telegraph & it's not half bad. The opinion pieces are laughable right-wing batshit but the news reporting is comprehensive & the coverage of science etc is well done. There is literally much more to read than in the Grauniad.

I’ve recently renewed by Torygraph sub for just under £30. They wanted to charge me a few hundred, halved it when I said it was too expensive… after a week or so they emailed me the much cheaper offer.

I read it mainly for the batshit readers’ comments.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/07/2025 10:13

SternlyMatthews · 26/07/2025 10:05

my horsefly tip: they are persistent , so making an improvised fly whisk out of a small branch, long grass, scarf, (anything!) & doing a lot of swishing can keep hungry ones at bay.

or proactively apply repellants - the newer type doesn’t stink like DEET, boots do a spray in a convenient bottle. It’s part of my standard handbag in summer and also one in the rucksack, plus a tube of antihistamine - slathering it on immediately if you feel a bite can be very useful.

Emptyandsad · 26/07/2025 10:14

ErrolTheDragon · 26/07/2025 09:36

DH reads everything now he’s retired, he generally finds the Times the least unbalanced.
Obviously it’s a good idea to read a variety of sources and try to remember to apply some judgment - perhaps some of the same criteria which I believe are used for assessing historical sources. E.g. is this first hand, contemporaneous reporting? Is it very much ‘well they would say that wouldn’t they’, or not? If you see a source which is usually biased one way writing something that’s at odds with their usual narrative then it’s generally more likely to be true, I think.

I think different papers do different things well. The guardian, which is my general go-to paper, is terrible on some things - including gender politics. I also get weary of its smugness.

The Times is great on gender politics but its owned by Murdoch who has his own agenda going on across lots of topics, promoting his own political and commercial interests.

The Mail, which does do good stuff occasionally (Stephen Lawrence) is just toxic and totally untrustworthy

I've been following the Glasgow Herald through all this case, and have enjoyed their coverage

DrUptonsWallofSad · 26/07/2025 10:15

ickky · 26/07/2025 09:59

Have you noticed how much better Sandie looks now?

She looked haunted back in February.

She's definitely winning on optics. She looks happy and confident in every pic.

mrshoho · 26/07/2025 10:17

ickky · 26/07/2025 09:59

Have you noticed how much better Sandie looks now?

She looked haunted back in February.

Yes it's like a weight has been lifted off her shoulders. She's already been vindicated regardless of the outcome of the tribunal.

It does make me wonder about all the other employees potentially stuck in suspension and undergoing investigation. It seems the board only became bothered about Sandie's case and demanded her investigation be concluded after she initiated proceedings against the trust. How can the NHS allow these investigations to drag on for months/years? It's not fair on the employees and it's a waste of resources. I've never come across such incompetence.

Largesso · 26/07/2025 10:17

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 26/07/2025 07:59

They feed off each other, KS is as much to blame as DU. Stella O'Malley has talked about friendship-groups of girls who take up a very "feminine" boy and the group treats him like a pet surrounding him with affection and attention and affirmation. The boy feels very flattered and included (maybe for the first time, though I doubt that's DU) Those were young girls, this looks like an adult version.

I think it is about power.

As we know the power dynamic in institutions is very patriarchal. The board might be made up of 84% of women including the chair but I bet you the 16% of men still hold easy power.

These power dynamics are largely invisible but in every occasion a single man’s opinion will carry more weight than 84 women.

This also has the effect of pitting women against women which we also know from patriarchy. Some like to stand next to the man to assume some of his power. As soon as she steps a few feet away that is lost.

Some like to police other women on behalf of patriarchy and they will find themselves rewarded for that.
They will be trusted, praised, brought into closed circles but only on the very outside ring, perhaps even only the next room.

The NHS is institutional hierarchically misogynistic. Male doctors are at the top of the food chain, well above the board, and they use clothes to demonstrate this. Women doctors also use clothes to demonstrate they are above nurses. White coats will not be necessary.

Dr Upton, for example, would not have been wearing scrubs unless he was going into surgery or his clothes had been spoiled by some accident.

Women in medicine have had to use manipulation to get up that food chain. Expertise is not sufficient on its own. That manipulation, barring a few exceptions of course, becomes a habit. They use praise and flattery to position other people. ‘Really she’s so good at doing the dishes it’s amazing’ puts someone lower down the food chain automatically.

People don’t pay attention to the fact that the woman being seemingly praised has also designed and built the house containing the kitchen with the dishes. She might also have made the furniture. But if you praise her for doing the dishes so well folk dont see what you’re doing, that you are removing her powers
whikst
placing yourself above her in the food chain even if you have none of the achievements she has.

When you try and criticise that person for not giving you your due you will come across as petty — but she is always punctilious in her praise of you etc

The Stonewall champions scheme provided opportunities to circumnavigate the usual power structures.

DU is using that framing to escalate himself up the food chain of male doctors which would normally take a lot of time and professional investment. He is using SP to position himself — or was trying to.

Kate Searle is using DU to assert seniority — she is in a senior role but as explained above behind the scenes and with her peers her views will carry much less weight than the menz — through the Stonewall door which is so effective.

It is also the reason why Stonewallism is so alive in professional services and admin staff — at last they have the means of putting themselves above the doctors in the food chain.

Nurses are trained to follow procedure and if they don’t follow the hospital processes there will be consequences. It is again about asserting power and building a class system. It would be almost impossible to not come on board with the Stonewallism. Equally within nursing class people
have power struggles. Stonewallism allows the less able nurse to move up the nursing food chain as much as anywhere else.

Feminism has not yet defeated the patriarchy, far from it given current issues, and the patriarchy has always needed women to be the police and managers of it for it to work.

Even on here we see folk accepting Upton’s account of the Xmas encounter without question and assuming that SP was heated at the very least. Her account says she was calm as was DU. Why do so many automatically ignore her account to comment on how she could have handled it better and let things ‘calm down’.

I have been all over everything on this tribunal. TT, Foran, newspapers, SM and all I see is a wall of folk reacting to DUs account of that encounter as it it was the truth. Almost no one comments that SP’s account says they were dalm
and it was a reasonable discussion but DU made no concessions to her disco as a result of it.

I know that it’s partly because it doesn’t make sense that all this would come about because of a calm and reasonable conversation but it still represents the patriarchical favouring of men’s accounts. I could go on and on!

InterrobangsArePureBias · 26/07/2025 10:20

ickky · 26/07/2025 09:59

Have you noticed how much better Sandie looks now?

She looked haunted back in February.

Wasn’t she also on the recent back of her father’s funeral? In addition to everything else?

NoBinturongsHereMate · 26/07/2025 10:20

NotAGentleReminder · 25/07/2025 17:29

Had to go out, been catching up. Oh my goodness, what on earth was the point of MC's lecture on chromosomes?

From TT:
"MC The belief there's only 2 gender chromosomes is not correct. There are others than XX and XY that affect ppls sex characteristics. ALso mosaicism - where someone has chromosomes are mixed
J instructs quiet
MC mosaicism is v rare and when have 2 diff sets of chrormosomes. Most well known is post bone
MC marrow transplant so carry both. Sex chromosomes in addit to XX(F) and XY, can be XO where the other chromosome is blank. YO is not survivable. Also XXY amd XYY. These are all recognised syndromes
JR Are there names?
MC Xo is Turners. XYY is Klinefelters and XXY is?
JR Miss Cunningham knows and says is Swyers"

If the transcript is accurate and this is actually what was said, this information is incorrect. There is no such thing as 'gender chromosomes'. The sex chromosomes are X and Y. XYY is not Klinefelters, it is Jacobs syndrome and it would not at all be difficult to tell that the affected person was male. XXY is Klinefelters, this also only affects males and would be very easy to tell male in vast majority of cases, some men only find out as adults when they have fertility investigations. Not sure if there was a bit missed out that the Swyers comment was in response to but Swyers is not XXY as that is Klinefelters.

I am not a geneticist but am a doctor and we learned about the most common DSDs at medical school. Anyway it's not really relevant to this case!

Agreed, it's both entirely irrelevant and incorrect. Also incomplete - she missed the third sex-chromosome triploidy of XXX (triple X syndrome). That affects only women, just as the other 2 affect only men. Like Jacob's, it has little to no effect on primary or secondary sex characteristics.

And none of these trisomies have anything at all to do with either trans identities or altering who uses which changing room use. Indeed if Sandie did bring up chromosomes, these would all back up her point. If you have a Y, you're a man.

Pure filibuster.

[Edited for typos]

Waitwhat23 · 26/07/2025 10:22

Arran2024 · 26/07/2025 09:52

How pro trans rights do the SNP have to be for her? Most of the senior players have made their support pretty well known. They tried to push gender self ID and were only thwarted by Westminster. Maybe she would be happier in the Greens.

It seems to the natural path for those SNP MSP's and members who feel that the SNP aren't quite women hating enough.

A reminder that Mridul Wadhwa, former CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, stomped off to the Scottish Greens after he felt that the SNP hadn't taken a hard enough line against women who wanted to be able to request a female medical examiner after being raped, during the Forensic Medical Examiner Services debate.

tribunalObserver · 26/07/2025 10:23

Legal q: I feel I should know, but in this setting, what can cross-examination cover? Is NC limited to asking MC about things she was taken to by JR in chief, or can she ask her about anywhere her name comes up in the bundle, for example? If the former, perhaps that might explain JR's weird time-wasting - could she have been attempting to appear to do a good job of eliciting evidence while actually avoiding something?

Largesso · 26/07/2025 10:25

NoBinturongsHereMate · 26/07/2025 10:20

Agreed, it's both entirely irrelevant and incorrect. Also incomplete - she missed the third sex-chromosome triploidy of XXX (triple X syndrome). That affects only women, just as the other 2 affect only men. Like Jacob's, it has little to no effect on primary or secondary sex characteristics.

And none of these trisomies have anything at all to do with either trans identities or altering who uses which changing room use. Indeed if Sandie did bring up chromosomes, these would all back up her point. If you have a Y, you're a man.

Pure filibuster.

[Edited for typos]

Edited

I think this is interesting on so many levels. Why did JR take the witness there and allow her such scope? I think because she had planned in the timetabling that NC wouldn’t be anticipating that in her cross and would get muddled in her cross — because JR believes all of it to be true because it comes from a doctor.

Thats why she was so frustrated by the tome-tabling going so whackadoodle (her own fault) because she really did not want NC to have a whole three days of research time for her team to prop.

Also, another sign of her lack of skill compared to NC is that because she allowed it in NC is entitled to cross on it. Big mistake I think. HUGE. It should allow NC scope to really challenge any misconceptions the panel may have formed regarding GI.

SternlyMatthews · 26/07/2025 10:26

ErrolTheDragon · 26/07/2025 09:23

Maybe JR intended this would be some sort of ‘but it’s complicated’ nonsense to try to defuse the ‘ooh we cant tell Upton is a man’ idiocy from earlier witlesses without properly considering that NC would be likely to be well informed. And definitely not anticipating the part about bone marrow which obviously isn’t part of the usual transactivists script and which NC may now question. It seems to be evidence of the neutral fact that people can’t change sex. A GC person will believe this but this witness surely knows* it.

(* irresistible, sorry)
…mn markup has trashed the bolding in thisHmm

Edited

'witlessess' sums them up.
MC on chromosomes was bizarre. JR would have just wanted sthing from the 'its complicated' booklet, but instead got a witless who clearly hadnt been forewarned, or thought about any of that for years, so was rehashing the 'what did science discover from the genetics of abnormal development class', where mosaicism in tortoiseshell cats is an interesting example of sex linked mosaicism which she should have remembered before bone marrow transplants.
As evidence, it adds nothing to C or R case, NC is unlikely to waste time on it as she has bigger fish to fry (no! not clownfish).

borntobequiet · 26/07/2025 10:26

Peregrina · 26/07/2025 08:15

I would like to know why, when MC started waffling on about DSDs, that the judge didn't intervene to ask her to explain the relevance to this case?

I do so hope that exposing this diversionary tactic so blatantly means that it’s comprehensively demolished in the final judgement.
Another idiotic decision on the part of the defendants’ legal team.

AMiddleClassWomanOfACertainAge · 26/07/2025 10:28

DuchessofReality · 25/07/2025 19:03

Is anyone a D L Sayers fan? I would love a one line description of each witness as in ‘Busman’s Honeymoon’:

’Then, the prisoner himself, witness in his own defence, a very bad witness indeed, sullen and impudent by turns’.

I love Sayers. Her Wimsey series is very funny and lots of the observations about society and human nature are still current. See Murder Must Advertise, this novel’s take on marketing/advertising particularly so.

In her 50s she learnt Italian so that she could translate Dante’s Divine Comedy. Amazing woman.

And on being asked why she wore trousers replied because I have legs.

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