"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Discuss

[dunBle]

To save further derailment of the Sandie Peggie tribunal threads with people debating Tandora's statements on the above theme, I've started this thread to point them to instead.

And yet, laws and policies involving safeguarding are not created based on future findings. They are built to be used immediately using current knowledge.

Maybe the 1 in 4 women raped by a male in their life time didn’t need anyone to tell them which sex they were.

Maybe the men who rape 1 in 4 women didn’t need anyone to tell them sex is binary.

In case lurkers are reading this thread, but are a bit overwhelmed by the ongoing Fife tribunal threads, Tandora rocked up on a recent one announcing they were "heartbroken" for Dr Upton. That's right; told feminists on a feminist board that they were heartbroken for the man asked to leave a women's changing room. Not for the woman who's had to stand up in court and describe to the world her past sexual abuse and menstrual flooding.

The lurkers can judge this for themselves.

No. Insulting possibly, gaslighting not.

Oh so you have processing difficulties as well. Nightmare innit.

Especially when the person apparently cogently explaining is making no fuck9ng sense whatsoever.

It's OK to not understand. Nobody does. It's because it isn't true.

A man who fathered children doesn't cease to be male just because he says 'im a lady'. He really doesn't.

But you claim to be an expert on human sex determination - so please actually give us these ‘facts’ that prove humans can change sex and/or sex is so very complex we cannot actually really know what sex anyone else is.

So I needed rocket scientist level understanding of sex, to understand why every person in my post natal ward who had just given birth was a woman?

And all the people in the breast screening van were women?

And those who were pregnant in the ante natal classes?

And those who took part in the research project to investigate why, for some women, the Covid vaccine had interfered with their menstrual cycle?

The man with a penis who tried to sexually assault me certainly knew I was a woman, & I knew he was a man. He didn’t ask to check my chromosomes.

Not at all. You see Tandora's explanations as clear. Many others don't. You also, presumably, see them as helpful in relation to improving the experiences of trans people within society. I would have thought, if you genuinely want to help trans people thrive and flourish, it would be in your interest to just summarise the relevance of DSDs, for example to the lives of trans people such as those already mentioned eg Eddie Izzard, and where desistors and detransitioners fit in.

'Tandora is extremely clever and wiping the floor with you lot, you must be really quite thick to not understand'

'Yes, we are really really thick, us. Please explain it to us'

'No, I am not a rocket scientist I'm just not able to explain it to thickos like you because you just won't understand the big words I would have to use, there are no words thick enough for the likes of you to understand'.

'Lol. Ok sure'.

Presumably to know more than Baron Winston Tandora must be pretty F'ing eminent but I'm not seeing any sign of that in her posts.

Suggestions please is right, this is excellent reading for onlookers.

They’ll quickly pick who is trying to needlessly complicate something that’s been clear and consistent and understood by all for thousands of years.
They’ll see who is spouting fluffy clouds of nonsense to mask their attempt to sneak in falsehoods.

They’ll spot the fox in the henhouse, despite the feathers glued to its ears and around its mouth.

I've realised there's another reason why the constant exploitation of people with DSDs in the trans debate bothers me so much.

Having a DSD must be horribly distressing because everyone else you know fits neatly into the male/female sex binary. Everyone else goes through normal puberty and develops more or less as expected. Everyone else tends to assume that they will be able to have children one day if they want to. Other people can start relationships as adults without having to deal with, at worst, having obviously abnormal sexual anatomy, or at best, having to explain to relatively new partners that their reproductive system does not function as it should and that they will not or might not be able to have children.

And now their medical problems are being exploited by a political movement which (a) tries to characterise people with completely normal reproductive anatomy as particularly oppressed, marginalised and disadvantaged because they claim that their reproductive anatomy doesn't "match" the way they "feel" inside, and (b) actually campaigns to deliberately alter those people's bodies (including when they are still children) in a way that will lead to a similar loss of sexual and reproductive function to that experienced by people with DSDs.

If I had a DSD I would be fucking furious about being co-opted into this offensive and parasitic movement.

I think Tandora's explanations are perfectly clear.

They're just wrong.

Unclear implies that she is saying something with potential merit, we just can't understand what it is because she is expressing herself badly.

She's expressing herself well enough. It's just that what she's saying is total nonsense.

If sexual dimorphism in humans was as complicated to understand as rocket science, we would be extinct.

@PermanentTemporary

That’s an interesting reading of my post, & use of the word implying.

My post concerned how I didn’t need to be rocket science level to distinguish who were male & female.

You chose to highlight the part about sexual assault, & to use the word imply. I’m sure you can find the figures for the number of men convicted of violent/sexual crimes who identify as women.

You will also be able find statistics for the sex of those committing certain types of crimes, and the sex of those who are victims of certain types of crimes. That’s up to you, that’s not (clearly) what my post was about.

Yes I was being unnecessary in many ways. I apologise and will report my post.

Neither repetition nor reinforcement is clarity.

What is very very clear is that we all know which humans have the potential to give birth and which will never have this.

Denying this is clear is either naivety or sinister. Or both.

Bottom line - this is false: "Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components".

There are only 2 sexual development pathways and they have varios effects on the body.

We all know who is male and who is female with very rare exceptions. Some of the normal blokes want to use the exception to muddy the waters.

Answer is still no.

So, @Tandora thinks that a TW is an otherwise normally developed male, who has developed a heartfelt conviction that he is really female, as a result of something which has gone wrong in the development of his brain.

I can see that might sometimes be true, albeit difficult to test, and even that 'presenting as female' could be a last-ditch therapeutic resort to mitigate psychological distress.

What I don't understand is why everyone else should be forced to pretend to share his belief, to the point of suffering actual detriment to data integrity, safeguarding, freedom of speech, sex-based rights, privacy, and fair competition etc. How does this logically follow?

I know right!! The self centred ness of men who decide they “feel like” women so deman access to female spaces and demand women change the meaning of woman for them. I totally agree with you there. Why do they think that just because women exist, they can co opt womanhood if they feel like it. I am so glad we agree.

Morning @Tandora and @suggestionsplease1

Glad to see you are active this morning.

Any chance of a response?

@suggestionsplease1 @Tandora

Simple questions, really, which I am sure you can help with.

Looking to improve my understanding of your position.

I agree with you, suggestions. I especially admire the composure of @Tandorathroughout. Kudos.

At least they’ll post links to references, even if they are mostly ‘Answers from Genesis’ .

It feels a bit like a conversation with a flat earther (some of whom are quite intelligent) … you say the earth is round, they triumphantly declare ‘it’s more complicated than that’. Well sure, it’s more complicated: it’s an oblate spheroid not a perfect sphere, with lumpy bits and the latter mean it’s not flat anyway.