"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Discuss

[dunBle]

To save further derailment of the Sandie Peggie tribunal threads with people debating Tandora's statements on the above theme, I've started this thread to point them to instead.

Are you suggesting that we can't tell who is male and who is female?

You have to remember MissScarlet that these are ‘special feelings’ felt by the worlds most vulnerable and misunderstood group of men.

They originate from a body that is mired in the blind blowing complexity of ‘what is sex’ & which has to fight against inconveniences such as the law & the sad (for them) fact that other people have rights too.

For this group feelings have to trump facts, as the fact that men can never be women can’t be changed.

Lol. What you see on the main boards is the same 4 or 5 people jump on any thread that is vaguely about "what I would change about mumsnet", the first to say "ugh FWR" and the other 4 to say "I know right they are such bullies, they bullied me off that time I came to tell them about clownfish and hormone washes and how they need to bekind, it's such an echo chamber".

Meanwhile all polls on the topic run 70/80/90 % gender critical.

Human beings aren't clownish. Male people with mysterious "hormone washes" that flip their minds from male to female are still male for all real world practical purposes. Pretending otherwise hurts women in practical ways by taking away the single sex supports we use to navigate the challenges and risks of being female in a society designed by and for men, by taking away the language we need to describe what it is to be us, and thereby disconnecting us fron each other and our shared history.

And you can say "no it doesn't" as much as you like, but until you and your ilk come up with more than just denial, until you actually engage with that argument to show why it's false, you will not convince anyone except that little circle of backslappers.

😂

Are you suggesting that trans people have DSDs? Or they all have some other biological factor that makes them trans? All of them? Eddie Izzard, Jamie Wallis, Isla Bryson, Pips Bunce? How about the detransitioners? Do they also share this biological factor? And the desistors?

no one knows that those who father children then wear a dress and lippy and call themselves priscilla the plumber (sorry pete) are male. 😂

The facts are still unfolding, as they are in many areas of life.

A fre threads ago, Tandora said that trans people are neither male nor female.

Maybe Tandora can wipe the floor with me and just for once, explain why they think they can make statements like this. Come on, please, do it.

<squints at male offspring sitting right in front of me>

this conversation reminds me of art school crits.

🏃‍♂️🏃🏃‍♀️ ‘Facts!! ….. Facts!!!! … where are you??!’

Weird how the earliest humans managed to find the right sex to procreate with, isn’t it? I wonder what facts they had?

Tandora has always explained cogently and with clarity. If some posts don't land for some people, that might be a reception and processing issue for some perhaps.

There is an interesting semantic and biological debate on whether a male embryo stops being male if it goes on to develop CAIS. But it can't be a rigorous academic debate if people say usage of the word male makes them "feel ill" and that it's unscientific and silly to even want to discuss. I recommend Unnatural Causes (memoirs of a forensic pathologist) as an example of how difficult and sensitive topics (ie cot death) can be discussed calmly and factually.

And once again, there is no explanation as to why the existence of DSDs has any relevance to Eddie Izzard saying he needs to use womens toilets depending on what he's wearing that day. I realise mentioning Eddie is a bit awkward for some.

This reminds me so much of all those discussions with creationists I used to have. The same handwavy obfuscation.

This is all you’ve got?

Please can you tell me how we know which humans to select to harvest gametes for IVF.

Maybe you could summarise the relevance of DSDs to women's rights and who is trans. Think of it as a public service

“The existence of a trans woman does not redefine or diminish your womanhood in any way, your womanhood is personal to you, no one can change it, steal it, whatever else you claim trans people are doing to it”

I keep coming back to this.

The failure in logic is really clear in a sentence where the fifth word in the sentence is ‘woman’ being used to refer to a male person. Then the rest of the sentence goes on to deny that use of the fifth word is being used to describe a male person.

Apparently, everyone can see the word ‘woman’ there. Yet one group of people deny that the usage in the first part of the sentence directly contradicts the rest of the sentence.

This contradiction is ignored. We have seen versions of this sentence many times and the same contradictions applauded as being insightful, inspired and correct thinking.

The Emperor is naked.

‘The facts are still unfolding’ 🤣🤣

Like a beautiful flower of truth?

Well, they’ve been ‘unfolding’ for millennia & we’re still at just the 2 sexes. Funny that, almost as if that’s the reproductive system that works.

But feelings 🤔☁️🦄

Tandora has already clearly explained to you.
Perhaps a reception and processing (and potentially memory as well) issue for you.

Yes I cannot process the cogent explanation

Please expand. How are trans people neither male nor female? Like you are explaining it to a child. Crack on.

It can’t stop being male. If it did and became female then it would not have CAIS. It it stopped being male it wouldn’t have issues with testosterone insensitivity because it wouldn’t need testosterone to continue along the male developmental pathway.

Redefining a word to include a bunch of other stuff is not science. It’s semantics.

We have known what men and women are, and who is who, for thousands of years. Science’s ability to categorise a tiny minority of outliers who would be infertile without scientific intervention does not change that.

She (I assume) really hasn't. Tandora tries to fit reality to how she wishes the world to be, it's utterly unscientific. Tandora doesn't explain, reference, respond to question she doesn't like, just repeats stuff over and over again and accuses other people of ignorance. Still never clarified what her famous "field" actually is. This is not science.

There's a reason I'm not a rocket scientist; because my capacity for understanding engineering maxes out at point before the level of competence required to become one.

There may be a parallel in there somewhere for you.

And neither does Eddie Izard changing his mind about how he sees himself. He can see himself as trans now, if he wants. We all still know exactly who he is. Pragmatically I think he’s ok with that.

This is just plain old gaslighting.