"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Discuss

[dunBle]

To save further derailment of the Sandie Peggie tribunal threads with people debating Tandora's statements on the above theme, I've started this thread to point them to instead.

Or developmental biologist and Nobel laureate Christiane Nüsslein-Volhard.

It's nice to know my words live in your head rent free for days.

Trans woman does indeed mean biological male presenting as a woman yes. Trans woman does not change or eradicate the stand alone word woman. You could only claim that if woman meant both trans and biological woman, but it doesn't.

Your woman hood is not defined by a single word, even if you deleted the word woman from language your womanhood would remain unchanged so you really don't need to cling to this idea that the word trans woman is erasing you. Everyone with a basic grasp of the English language knows that it is not.

And more silly catch phrases about emporers. On brand.

Or homeopathy supporters. I almost miss those discussion, at least they didn't suggest to mutilate teenagers.

what transgender males are called doesn’t change our ‘womanhood’ but it has directly impacted on women’s experience of their womanhood in the real world. It’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
Words matter. That’s why transactivists insist on using the word woman, now even female, even though surely according to your logic their whatever-hood it is shouldn’t depend on it either.

Depends on the lens though doesn’t it. If you are looking to find Transphobia then you will probably think you have found it. If on the other hand you are looking through the lens of safeguarding and SSS which are based on the current understanding of biological facts, as is absolutely correct that they should be, then you will understand that the argument that Self ID is enough (which is actually where all this started) is in reality unworkable and very unsafe.
Sure, there could be some
possible future where a developmental pathway to someone being transgender is actually proven ( I personally think this is unlikely and possibly undesirable too) but laws and safeguarding measures need to reflect the current realities and facts as they stand today.

So women shouldn’t be so tied to the word woman? Yet men claiming to be women demand to have this word applied to them? Why, if it’s so unimportant? Surely they could just call themselves men but present however they like.

The lies after lies on this thread 😂.

Where have I said I am an expert on sex determination?

What is the connection between the word "woman" used in the original sense to describe a person of female body and the word "woman" in the phrase "trans woman"?

Should "trans women" be allowed in woman only spaces, take woman-only roles or speak from the perspective of a woman?

If yes, why?

If not, why not?

If you don't think that's an important question when it comes to the legal and social existence of women (original sex based meaning) as a meaningful category in our own right, why not?

Please show your working out. Points will be deducted for unevidenced assertions and non-sequitors.

Surely you must be if you can know that Tandora’s claims of sec being so very complex tgat none of is actually know what sec anyone is. Tandora has provided no empirical evidence on this thread for viewing, so I’m assuming you must be privy yourself to this information yourself. No?

Interesting that you immediately jump to calling me a liar when I’m simply observing your posts which illustrate a certainty that Tandora’s claims are right.

No. Your words didn't live in my head. I saw them again because someone posted about it and I was struck again at the direct contradiction within that sentence. But in the same spirit of your opening sentence, it is great that it makes you feel good to think I was thinking about you at all between mentions. Fill your boots if it makes you feel good.

You seem to have either not understood or are simply ignoring the point of my post. Additionally, my 'womanhood' is only defined by my using the word 'woman' because I am female.

For sure, if the word woman was not used at all in the English language, we would still have a unique word to describe being an adult who has a body formed around the production of large gametes regardless of the production status of those gametes. It would never include a male person who had a body formed around the production of small gametes (regardless of the production status of those gametes).

In other words, whatever word was used to describe my body type and my development stage, would not include male people. So, if you then create a description of a group of male people that makes any positive reference to the word of used to uniquely describe a female person, it contradicts your point.

Using that alternative term in your point “The existence of a trans [insert term] does not redefine or diminish your [insert term]hood in any way, your [insert term]hood is personal to you, no one can change it, steal it, whatever else you claim trans people are doing to it”.

The first part of your point directly contradicts the rest of your point because that group you are saying does not redefine or diminish my experience of being an adult who has a body formed around the production of large gametes regardless of the production status of those gametes, has by the very nature of that sentence 'redefined' my experience. Thereby 'diminishing' it.

What is also interesting, is that this is a direct consequence of creating the space between the words 'trans' and 'woman'.

Nope. Tandora has told us that that some men are woman because they just know they are and we should accept that. But women can’t be Transwomen (as said by Tandora on another thread). Now Tandora is saying that because DSDs exist, this explains why some men are women. Even if these men have fathered children.

It’s complete and utter nonsense and I suspect that Tandora is so deeply entrenched in this ideology because it’s very close to home.

Let’s go back to basics shall we?

the diagnosis of gender dysphoria aka being trans, is based on observed behaviours, stereotypical of the opposite sex. And low mood associated with not being the opposite sex.

despite all the buckets of Very Cool Things we now know about sex and hormones, also brains, there is STILL no other diagnostic test.

there’s buckets of evidence however of how socio social impacts of peers, media and influence via information around in the ether, including clear Bs on NHS sites, which is hastily removed when highlighted by members of the public on social media.

we can discuss the wonders of biology and sex and the disabilities it can cause when there’s a dna copying mistake till the cows come home.

the diagnosis of trans as a medical condition that requires all this accommodation is simply an observed list of behaviours. At at points in the past it has included or been included in the list for BPD, now includes Eunuchs (wtaf) and a desperate desire to not include agp, despite many with AGP shouting LOUD and CLEAR that this is very much a real thing.

all this arguing and handwringing about Upton is totally pointless as he really is a male who decided to transition after the pandemic. Along with many many others.

What does presenting as a woman entail?

tandora hasn’t been clear what trans is. Definitely not. Everything has been about dsds and “so we must believe people who are healthy males who feel female.”

I thought scientists were taught NOT to extrapolate in this way?

the amount of money WPATH have you’d have thought they’d have found a diagnostic test by now, surely?

I paid a few hundred to screen my 10 week old bean, via blood from my arm, which had tiny amounts of his dna in it. It was a clinic a ten min drive away, at 2 pm in the afternoon iirc. (Was a few months before on nhs) it would have definitely shown me if he had a DSD, at that point or when born.

dr Upton could have got this test on his own blood very easily, to prove he has one of these biological issues. But hasn’t.

we are STILL relying on the basic diagnosis of people who like gender stereotypes society associates with the opposite sex. Which is just sexist.

Ultimately this stems from a desire to make it appear perfectly reasonable that adults are unable, under oath, to say what sex they are. Or what sex others are. In this case it’s reasonable because only ‘very clever’ people understand how complex sex is and they, the witnesses, couldn’t possibly comment. It’s bollocks.

there’s more evidence in brain scans identifying if someone is bi lingual or has the taxi knowledge than trans.

facts innit

I'd be very interested to see this study, if you can give us a link. And, as I've asked already, for any other, more recent studies to support what you're saying.

I see this thread has taken a comedic turn. And Tandora ‘is wiping the floor with this lot’ 🤣🤣. Where about?!

I assume it’s this. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40594415/

Hi @Tandora , Forgive me for not having read every post yet, it's a very long thread. Also a very interesting one. I'm genuinely curious about your perspective. Have a small question that might help me understand things better. How would you determine if a person is male or female?

We are suggesting that you can’t always tell who is male and who is female. And that how you tell who is male and who is female, involves human assessment/ judgement of a range of measures. Typically all of these different measures align (making the assessment and judgement immediately easy and obvious). sometimes they don’t.

And the relevance of that to, say, who should be in a female-only group for rape victims is what precisely?

Are you suggesting that because in vanishingly rare instances we cannot code male or female by sight alone that we should allow men who identify as women should have free access to wherever whenever?

And how does this relate to women being kind and allowing men to identify as they please with the end result being women’s spaces, refuges, sports, college scholarships, mental health units, , hospital wards, changing rooms, toilets, enterprise initiatives and on and on and on becoming obsolete? How does it relate to tracking things such as equal pay, crime statistics, health statistics?

if there’s one thing we can be VERY sure of, it’s that trans people are either male or female.

because otherwise they have a dsd. And this would be talked about openly, as linked blog does upthread, or completely private.

Upton would have presented his DSD in court by now.