"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Discuss

[dunBle]

To save further derailment of the Sandie Peggie tribunal threads with people debating Tandora's statements on the above theme, I've started this thread to point them to instead.

We separate women and men to help women avoid sexual assault and therefore unwanted pregnancy.

SO weird.

I assume you're happy to talk about Katie Dolatowski then?

Well, quite obviously allowing trans women into female spaces increases the risk of rape, because trans women can commit rape and women cannot. This is not actually up for debate.

So if your daughter was raped in a women only space, and she said to you, "I know you really believe that trans women are women and that sharing our spaces with them doesn't increase the risk of rape or sexual assault, and I believed that too until I was actually raped by a trans woman in a women only space, but now I don't believe that anymore because I know I wouldn't have been raped in that space if only other female people had been in it."

What would you say in response?

It's been said in the past that trans rights is like gay rights, and I think many people really think of it like that, including, I suspect, Tandora here.

And I think that they accept gay rights with the following logic, and apply the same to 'trans':

• A group wants something
• There is a biological reason they want it
• Therefore they should get what they want.

The fallacious 'born this way' argument.

But that wasn't why gay rights were moral, or granted.

And it's definitely not the reason to grant a right like 'entering women's spaces' when the second point is unprovable on an individual level, and unproven on a group level, and the right in question harms others.

Gay men weren't and shouldn't have been given the right to enter women's spaces just because they're not sexually attracted to women. Same applies to trans-identified men.

Yes what of it?

This is not evidence that allowing trans women to use female toilets increases incidents of rape and sexual assault. It doesn't.

You can ban trans women from using female toilets - it will have zero impact on reducing rape and sexual assault.

Yes, @BeLemonNow

I feel like a tennis player where the other person just walks off the court because they can't risk playing on.

Not sure how blanking people helps.

Disappointed in @Tandora 's approach.

Likewise, am going to get on with other things.

Feels like an opportunity missed. (Shrugs)

@Tandora
Friendly reminder about this question. I'm still interested to hear what you know.

But the prison population data shows that transwomen offend at at least the same rate as other men

so you are saying single sex facilities are not needed as men won’t assault women in them

yet The data from council owned sports facilities showed that in fact sexual assaults do occur where facilities are mixed - and don’t occur where mixing doesn’t occur

Men demanding access to women’s spaces because they insist everyone not only believes they are female but also suffer the consequences should they dare to say ‘no’, is infringing upon women’s dignity, safety and privacy.

Why aren't other men allowed in female only spaces?

I think the only thing left to do is gently remind Tandora of the ground we have covered and the questions that are unanswered in the event she starts the conversation up again.

Not sure what else we can do. We tried!

In the context of seeing a doctor, the doctor would assume the sex of the person by looking at them. There would be social cues - how they were dressed, their name, as well as cues related to physiological features associated with either sex. There is usually also a market on the medical record designating whether the person is 'f' or 'm'.

The prison population is not a representative sample of the population - you cannot use extrapolate from it in this way. If you did you would generate some exceptionally racist conclusions for example.

How does a doctor decide what contraception to suggest?

@Tandora

• You feel that probably most or all (not sure which) trans people have a medical reason for being trans. Is this right?

• You believe there is extensive research to support this view, but have yet to cite it or provide links. Is this right? Have I missed the links?

• Is BeLemonNow's summary of your thinking on this point correct (page 27)?

• You believe that the tiny percentage of people currently diagnosed with DSD fall within this group (see above) of trans people (or do you think they are a separate group?)

Please correct my understanding if incorrect.

Now here's the thing:

why does any of the above mean that this small percentage of trans women (men at birth) have a right to be in a space for women if women don't want them there?

Go on, go on, just a quick response clarifying where we differ before the tread closes.

In the spirit of sharing what you know.

Because of social convention, norms/ ideas about privacy/ dignity.

Of course it does, because trans women are capable of committing rape.

Allowing people who can commit rape into a space they are supposed to be excluded from is obviously going to increase the risk of rape.

PS on a purely logical basis it doesn't matter what proportion of transwomen are sexual predators, some are, so letting them into a cis women spaces increases the risk of sexual assault purely by numbers.

Bumping this.

But why do we have those social conventions?

Based on what reproductive anatomy the person had, which they would deduce based on their perception of the person's sex.

Any idea what the roots of those conventions and ideas may be? I’m still unclear about whether you believe trans women are male or female

But how does the doctor know? How do they know what sex it is that they are perceiving?

It has historical roots in patriarchal structures where men asserted control over women's sexual and reproductive behaviour/ capacities.

I answered that above. Sometimes they may be wrong of course which would involve a conversation between the doctor and the patient.