"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Discuss

[dunBle]

To save further derailment of the Sandie Peggie tribunal threads with people debating Tandora's statements on the above theme, I've started this thread to point them to instead.

a healthy bodied male has any correlation with someone who has a DSD
this is a nonsensical statement .

And absolutely not. I have passed no judgements on another person’s personhood , so there is no equivalence. I am simply describing the realities of human sexual development which is important and informative.

Believing physical sex exists is not "quasi religious".

Believing an as-yet-unexplained mental sex that is for an as-yet-unexplained reason both an utterly individual experience that no one else can perceive about you AND more meaningful to the people with whom one interacts with in the shared world of spaces and bodies and dangers and rights than your physical sex which they can clearly see and relate to, however...

no it isn’t, I’ll explain in more detail. In case you’ve not understood:

In what way is Dr Upton, a healthy bodied male, in the same category as a person with a DSD?

what are the similarities?

How do the two conditions, a DSD and a trans identity, correlate?

I am going to take Tandora as posting in good faith, from their position that it is theoretically possible there is a biochemical basis to "transness".

I would be genuinely interested in why this would be expressed so frequently in the two biggest groups of trans people (middle aged males and autistic teenage girls).

How does having homophobic parents, or sexual abuse whilst growing up fit into this?

They are not “male”. They have functioning SRY genes located normally on a Y chromosome, which is the male karyotype .
They have a male karyotype .
This does not make them - the person - “male”.

They are a person , not a karyotype . They have a female phenotype, a body which looks female, they are assigned female at birth , many of them may not even know about their variation until adolescence or even later (or never in some contexts). they are medically treated with female hormones to promote healthy female development, they are legally female, they identify as female, they are known and loved by all who know them as female.
They have a male karyotype and they are infertile .

It’s dehumanising and strips individuals who are actually living with this condition of their entire personhood to keep insisting this on calling their person “male”.

And all just so it means you get to continue to see the world in your black and white quasi religious framework where the only thing that matters is some grand, intentional design (whose?) about what type of gametes the body should have produced if only it were a completely different body to the one which it in fact is.

I disagree with you. Also, I'm an atheist.

The argument to that is that It’s also dehumanising to assert that someone with a DSD is the same as someone with a trans identity.

and dehumanising to women, that a man who imagines he’s actually a woman is actually a woman.

Also, what has it got to do with transness?

that someone with a DSD is the same as someone with a trans identity.

I never said this .

The existence of trans people is not dehumanising to women. This is a nonsense. Best wishes, a woman.

But isn’t it dehumanising to women to declare that only males with a trans identity can know they’re a woman but women can’t actually know they’re a woman because sex is sooooooo complicated? Isn’t it dehumanising to people with DSD to say they’re not male or female but some other unnamed sex?
Isn’t it dehumanising to women to say any male can be a woman if he wants to and if they don’t like it they’re evil right wing bigots?

Also disgaree. TIM appropriating my lived reality and imposing themeselves, often intact with penis, in women's toilets, shelters, changing rooms, prisons and sport is incredible dehumanising to women.

None of these things have any rational connection to anything I’ve said.

The idea that woman is something other than simple sexual biology-accepting transgender as innate rather than a response to environment- is actually dehumanising to women

it takes us back to women being lesser than men - lesser humans - because we have different brains

when in fact the brains are the same it’s only the role in species propagation that is different - we are equally human

How do you know you’re a woman? I thought you said no one could know if they’re a woman’s a man cos sex was very complicated and multidimensional and wobbly etc. So by what criteria are you claiming to be a woman?

If you have a male karyotype you are, by definition, male 🙄

I'm still none the wiser as to why a person with CAIS (observable medical condition - karyotypically male but usually treated as female) means that any male person without a DSD that we can detect or verify should be able to identify as female on their say so and that this should allow them access to female only spaces.

that’s your opinion which you’ve a right to.

But you’ve not said how your understanding of dsds leads to a trans identity. Is there a paper?

youve told us we don’t understand sex.

many other women have the opinion that a male dr imagining he’s a woman based on sex stereotypes and therefore entering a female nurses changing room and demanding that the hospital support his perceived and imagined rights here, is de humanising to those women.

No idea why you think i said this.

Caught up on tribunal thread… came back to look up DSD comments about being teamed with transgender.

One DSD charity has several comments on their website specifically objecting to this (forced) teaming. However, they also repeat the claim that CAIS xy individuals observed female at birth are biologically female ie the charity supports Khelif continuing to box in the female categories.

Similarly, when a young woman is diagnosed with DSD, e.g. during puberty, comprehensive evaluations are performed to understand the atypical sex development pathway. Unless she, supported by her medical team, chooses to apply for a revision, her registered sex remains her biological sex.

Reading between the lines, this may be due to a CAIS individual involved with the charity. Understandable that in this case they’d want to live as the ‘incorrect’ sex, but unfortunately contributing to a misunderstanding that CAIS individuals are / can be biologically female, which is being propagated here.

And on that note , I am out .

The discussion about CAIS is irrelevant to the discussion about trans. They are two separate discussions. People with CAIS don’t in any way legitimise letting men into women’s spaces or women’s sports.

I am not trying to shut down the discussion of either DSDs or the trans issue.

But I think that using DSDs as a proxy for trans issues, which is what you seem to be doing, is unjustified. People with DSDs are either male or female, not in some nebulous zone. They are tiny minority.

If you're arguing that trans is a DSD of the brain, what proportion of people do you think fall into that category? And how, until you can produce some science and a test or 20, do we tell the AGPs and those who want to win at sports at all costs and the rapists who suddenly don't fancy the Scrubs, from the others?

And in the meantime, what about women's rights - about which you do not appear to care at all.

NO- if you have a male karyotype It definitionally means you have a male karyotype. Thats it. Thats all it means. Objectively . Scientifically. That’s it. The end.

Truly out

Is it just me or is it weird to constantky quote yourself? I don't think I have seen a single other poster on MN do that? I suppose it tracks with the gradiosity.

Anyway, Khaleif doesn't have CAIS, he has 5ARD it is thought, which is again a male DSD, but also one where the individual DOES experience male puberty and therefore does develop male secondary sex characteristics, including a penis (which can be under virilised) and DOES benefit from male pubery and hence should most definitely NOT be in women's sports.

https://theparadoxinstitute.org/read/sex-development-charts?gallery=3172116646539824925976&item=63389b19869da07251b5a483