"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Discuss

[dunBle]

To save further derailment of the Sandie Peggie tribunal threads with people debating Tandora's statements on the above theme, I've started this thread to point them to instead.

I’m not being facetious here, but I’m still not seeing evidence that variations of biological processes means the reality of trans is anything other than an imaginary concept that trans people and many others fully believe in.

Show me the end result of these variations that result in a person being entirely different to male or female culminating in a completely different gamete capable of successfully reproducing.

Can you do that? Simple question

I disagree, but I think we have established that already.

I don't want to! I love the reality of biology and sex development and am constantly banging on about it:

https://theparadoxinstitute.org/read/sex-development-charts

😂

Sex is so complex that millions of uneducated people around the world, and even the simplest animals understand it

baby =m+f
no baby something broken perhaps

m+m
or f+f no baby possible

if you think it’s complex you are overthinking it and adding additional factors to it

strip it back to basics and start agin

The case law on biological sex bases it on karyotype, gonads, and genitals (including internal structures), at birth, but not psychology. It doesn't tell us anything about the legal position of anyone for whom these three attributes are not in perfect alignment. I've searched in vain for relevant case law, but wonder if it has just never been a problem needing a view from the courts?

Bizarre.

So now that you can see that we do understand the complexitis of sexual development in humans, are we allowed to talk about sex? Or is there something else about sex that you are uniquely positions to m.....explain to us? Eg with one of your research papers?

The thing is that I DO understand that the term sex to mean m and f has associated with it, many variables in terms of how genes are expressed etc.

but that’s still not trans.

what is trans?

Also, why do so many people change their minds? Or imagine them selves differently

In extreme case like CAIS, it might make more sense for them to live as the incorrect sex. And they certainly have a claim to that, unlike normal XY men

I mean seriously. Can people really read this garbage and not see how it’s profoundly wrong and discriminatory and has nothing to do with science?

😂

This has nothing to do with science? :

https://theparadoxinstitute.org/read/sex-development-charts?gallery=3172116646539824925976&item=66b18f88dd68d210e74617c6

Remember this morning though, poster's definitions of sex where falsely twisted to drop off the 'whether those small gametes were produced, ever produced or would ever be produced', in a false and weak attempt to discredit a definition that has been repeated by experts in developmental biology. Here it was done by 'They are infertile' as if this impacted on whether a person is male or female.

It is important to keep track of the dishonest representations of what has been said and what has not when reading a poster who makes declarations such as that male people with CAIS should not be described as 'male people'. In this instance, the reasoning ended up being that male people with CAIS did not produce small gametes so therefore are not male people. And that to suggest that they are is somehow 'religious' and 'dogmatic'. ie. that to describe a male person with CAIS as being a male person genetically is the indoctrinated position. Whereas, it is the opposite.

There is one rare DSD where continuing to live as a female makes sense

these are raised as girls and the issue only discovered when they don’t menstruate. The hormones balance that they have means they don’t get the male body advantages.

I see no problem in allowing for people with essentially a disability being given some dignity and choice - it has nothing to do with transgender - it’s objective , measurable by an independent observation and doesn’t rely on stereotypes

I'm sure most people are happy to treat cais individuals as women because they look like women and so get the same shit that the rest of us do (apart from periods etc). It's not worth having conniptions about. And it's not relevant to trans.

Yep, CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity) - and completely understood and measurable, using science, unlike transness, where we are meant to just accept that somone identifies as feeling like the opposite sex, with no way of knowing whether that is genuine or hides a nefraious motive, as in so many cases that make the headlines.

I might respect your credentials in this field more if you hadn’t misspelled "karyotype"…

there is emerging evidence that transness and gender dysphoria are underpinned by variations in sex hormone signalling genes and prenatal hormone balancing.
Can you give us some links to some of this evidence?

these are raised as girls and the issue only discovered when they don’t menstruate. The hormones balance that they have means they don’t get the male body advantages.
I see no problem in allowing for people with essentially a disability being given some dignity and choice

Yet some posters on this thread continue to insist on calling them male regardless of the actual person because of their own dogmatic quasi religious ideologies, it’s actually making me ill the extent to which some people think they have the right to impose labels and judgements on other people’s body and personhood.

yes, and still not relevant to the concept of trans.

TBH as a scientist, this was my propose approach circa 2018 when my friend transitioned - see if there is a biological basis to the sudden uptick in people identifying as the opposite sex.

The TRAs were not happy .......

with the same depth of feeling, many posters feel it is extremely disrespectful to claim that a healthy bodied male has any correlation with someone who has a DSD

which led to the evil comment on the other thread.

I’d also be interested in this

They are male. they have functioning SRY genes located normally on a Y chromosome. They have a downstrem mutation that means they can't follow the male developmental cascade properly. They are still male. They are phenotypically female and don't benefit from a male puberty so nobody has any problem treating them as bona fide women. Why on earth does that make you feel ill?