"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Discuss

[dunBle]

To save further derailment of the Sandie Peggie tribunal threads with people debating Tandora's statements on the above theme, I've started this thread to point them to instead.

It does sound like you believe that in the future there will be a blood test to eating someone is true trans, based on research for DSDs.

Is that a fair assertion ?

You're wrong I am afraid.

Tandora

Dr Upton has stated that he’s a biological female. Do you agree? If so, would you agree that his body developed along a pathway at conception to produce large immobile gametes? And no, discussion of DSDs won’t cut it here.

If you don’t define a woman as an adult human female what is your definition, without reference to gender stereotypes? How has Dr Upton explained his transformation from male to female, without reference to shaving off his beard, dying his hair, wearing feminine clothes, using a female name & incorrectly using the single sex spaces meant for the opposite sex?

I actually feel quite sorry for you. You’ve set out your stall which has been roundly demolished. Your statements are embarrassing, they’re trotted out by ideologues, activists & cowards all over social media. Nobody is buying what you’re trying to sell. Good luck with your attempt to overturn millions of years of evolution, just so men like Upton can totter off to their cars crying about the mean ladies who won’t undress next to them.

Go on then, let’s have your oh so complex answers. Actually don’t bother, I already know what they’ll be.

Rachel Levine, former Secretary of State for Health in the USA, reviewed 102 papers and in summary says: A number of research studies have investigated biological factors that could potentially contribute to transgender identity, but results often contradict each other.

Which is what we are saying, all the theories presented to us here contradict each other and are weak, especially compared with what is actually known about sex.

I've posted this already and it's just been ignored.

Biological studies of transgender identity: A critical review

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19359705.2022.2127042

Introduction:
There is increasing public and research interest in transgender people and communities. Coupled with this interest is a renewed pursuit of research into the possible biological origins of transgender identity. In this review, we critically examine the biological literature which explores the etiology of transgender identity, including endocrinological, behavioral, genetic, and neuroimaging studies, with the goal of identifying key trends in this literature, limitations, critical gaps, and future directions.

Methods:
We searched the Pubmed database for peer reviewed original experimental research conducted since 1990, using a combination of six transgender identity-related search terms and 18 topic search terms.

Results:
A total of 102 articles across the disciplines of endocrinology, genetics, cognitive function, and neuroanatomy met our review criteria. Most studies were conducted at gender identity clinics. Several approaches yielded compelling results, but where replication has been attempted, results have varied. We identified several issues in experimental design and/or interpretation that might account for this inconsistency.

Conclusion:
A number of research studies have investigated biological factors that could potentially contribute to transgender identity, but results often contradict each other. Interpretation of etiological studies of transgender identity can be misunderstood and/or misused by media, politicians, and care providers, placing transgender people at risk. We question the utility of etiological studies in clinical care, given that transgender identity is not pathological. When etiological studies are undertaken, we recommend new, inclusive designs for a rigorous and compassionate approach to scientific practice in the service of transgender communities and the providers who serve them.

The existence of them isn't.

Forcing us to include them as though they were the same sex as us and calling us bigots if we don't like it is.

I did not think that Khelif had CAIS. I had thought that the sport where CAIS had the most occurrences in athletes in the female category was pole-vaulting. Khelif most likely has a DSD that allows their body to make use of testosterone, such as 5ARD,

What is actually quasi-religious is the idea that we have sexed souls.

Well, this is my subjective view, but, I do not feel offended by cais or swyer syndrome individuals claiming to be female.

I'm even willing to cut Khelif and Semenya some slack on the identity front (although they shouldn't compete as women because it's unfair and/or unsafe: plus, they should legally be excluded from single-sex women's spaces as a schedule 3 derogation from the general ban on perceptive discrimination - SC ruling).

They've all had horrible tricks played on them by Nature.

When, otoh, some completely normal guy, maybe with children, tells me he's really a woman like me, I am enraged beyond belief. How very dare he!

It's no use saying it's his brain. Everything is brains! It's no better than a quasi-religious belief which he wants to force on the rest of us. And the state lets him.

The state can't change a person's sex or beliefs.

So you’re saying sex is simple and binary now? Did I get that wrong? How can you tell you’re a woman? You’ve been very clear that you think that no one can actually tell which sex they are because it’s all very complicated. So how are you defining woman to know you are one?

This is one review already 3 years old (since publishing - so longer for the actual work) looking at particular types of studies - (and it’s by no means an exhaustive in any case). 3 years is a long time in scientific publishing. There was a brand new twin study on genetic contributions to transness published just a couple of weeks ago.

Bizarre.

I thought you were 'really out'? Bizarre.

Another element of critical thinking in academic writing is to consider the wider implications in making an argument. Specifically, considering as many stakeholders as possible to adopt a multi stakeholder perspective in both developing an argument and in responding to key counter arguments.

You may have a medically informed argument in relation to individuals with DSD ie xy being biologically female or at least can argue that this premise is supported by some medical research.

However, you have consistently avoided responding to the wider implications of arguing that xy individuals can be female in terms of the wider impact for vulnerable women in prisons, hospitals, refuges, sport etc. throughout this thread. I’m curious about this omission and now it seems you will definitely not be addressing any of those wider concerns.

If twin studies are suggesting a genetic link to transness, have those studies controlled for both same sex attraction and detransition/ desistance?

And have they controlled for environmental factors such as homophobia and or how trans is seen by the local community, access to internet etc

is it just within ‘western cultures’ with access to TV and social media or does it translate to other cultural contexts?

Do you know what makes me feel ill? Go on I bet you can guess.

Yep it's people who believe the sex that is smaller, weaker and often sexually assaulted by the other sex has no rights or entitlement to single sex spaces, to protection under law, to safety and fairness in sport and all of the other rights and needs of women that you want to wave away in order to be kind to men and pander to their wants.

If it's affecting you that much, maybe you should leave the thread, like you said you were doing first thing this morning.

Yes, there was discussion about Khelif being 5ARD on these threads more generally. The website didn’t specify which DSD in relation to Khelif.

We do know that if Imane Khelif were a British citizen, then according to the recent UK Supreme Court ruling, her biological sex is that of a female.
We urge all commentators to adhere to the Supreme Court’s ruling.
Anyone wishing to comment on Imane Khelif’s biological pathway could describe the athlete as ‘a female athlete widely assumed to have an unspecified advantage.’

However, the website does explicitly argue that CAIS individuals can be female. Repeated here by tandora.

CAIS is a disorder of male sex development. Testes, which are present albeit atrophied, are part of the male reproductive system. The essential parts of the female reproductive system - ovaries, fallopian tubes, uterus - are not present.

So there's an argument for referring to such afflicted individuals as male in some contexts, just as there is for referring to them as female in other contexts.

its well known that mental health and personality traits are inherited first and then environmental factors play a large part in impacting mental health and behaviour thereafter. Especially experiences in early childhood

Oh and we place labels and restrictions on people all the time. Someone who is 45 can't go to school or draw their pension, some one who hasn't passed their driving test can't get behind the wheel unsupervised, some one with no medical training can't practice medicine, people aren't allowed to commit crimes and when they do they face arrest, trial and imprisonment.

We don't live in total anarchy with everyone doing whatever they want whenever they want we expect there to be rules and restrictions on how we are able to behave.

Oh, it is not...

I used to work in an organisation where 1 or 2 individuals, every year, over the course of the last 4 years or so, ‘came out’ as ‘trans.’

They were all young teenage females. They all had a diagnosis of ASD, & all struggled socially. In addition, the majority were from homes where their parents had separated. They also had comorbidities such as disordered eating & self harm, mainly arm cutting. They were also mainly gay.

No doubt Tandora you would dismiss any talk of social contagion (mainly through social media) & the fact that this very vulnerable group were/are ripe for an ideology that offers them a regressive gender based way to frame themselves, in a world they struggle to fit. Of course your assertion that sex is so complex & multidimensional is a much better claim 🙄

However, you have consistently avoided responding to the wider implications of arguing that xy individuals can be female in terms of the wider impact for vulnerable women in prisons, hospitals, refuges, sport etc. throughout this thread. I’m curious about this omission and now it seems you will definitely not be addressing any of those wider concerns.

Indeed. Still no answer to this:

Tandora says:

Treat... them according to their experience of sex, and not what we are able to externally "observe"/deduce about their sex based on observation at birth.

I say:

Women who have to share intimate space with them, or compete with them, etc, will also 'experience' their (male) sex, objectively, based on things that can be measured irl. Why does their experience count for nothing?

And answer came there none.

Nor what trans is if it’s not an imagined perception of what it’s like to be the opposite sex

Have not RTFT
but this page is quite useful when people try to imply that human sex is not binary
https://www.hfea.gov.uk/treatments/embryo-testing-and-treatments-for-disease/