NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

Maybe read it again? It seems ironic to criticise a woman for describing her abuse at the hand/s of men, on this thread.

You do know that slander isn't just a legal term? It also has a more general meaning of making false and damaging statements about someone.

I don't think anyone is criticizing the subject; more wondering how the approach rises to the level of scholarship that deserves a Ph.D.

I didn't get the same impression from what was posted here.

The supervision was a) standard procedure when doing a phased return to work, and b) she said it was also to protect Sandie.

I.e. because there would be a neutral senior member of staff present to verify to others that she wasn't putting patients at risk, or being trans/homophobic or racist. Otherwise people could have been straight back in with the accusations.

The only thing she can be doing is clarifying that they were disregarded in the process appropriately on the lack of evidence by this witness, which is a tiny bit of cleaning up she can do.

Everything else is unrecoverable.

Thanks Waitwhat - yes!

"Intimidating one's partner with angry outbursts [& alcohol abuse] are hallmarks of abusive males. And so is excessive displays of grief & upset, especially when called to account. It's a manipulation tactic, aimed at moving the focus from their wrongdoing to their mental state."

I think your theory is very plausible. Making your name as an activist dr also saves you the work of having to be a good one. You can speak at conferences, have a big SM following, become a chair of GLADD etc etc. All great portfolio points whilst avoiding any actual doctoring. I think that grift may be coming to a natural end though. But I speculate.

I'm not disputing her awful experience, just that one case , and the author's at that, makes a PhD thesis. I spent 17 years working in a psychology department, ok, not academic staff but working with PhD students, and it wouldn't have been an approved topic/methodology. I'm questioning the thesis and process, not her experience.

From Michael Foran's podcast yesterday, Beth Upton was also threatening to call the police? I looked through the TT for Upton's evidence days in Feb, but couldn't find any reference to this - does anyone remember this?

Spoke too soon about this page staying hinest
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peggie_v_NHS_Fife

Well I am not comfortable criticising a woman for writing about her experience at the hands of men. At whatever level. And did she get her PHD? If so, perhaps the people who judged it knew more than you.

Someone posted something in reference to that on this thread if you check the images. KS sent an email saying she spoke to Upton and encouraged him to contact the police should be want to.

I think it's more likely they were frightened of him. I have personal experience of a spiteful TIM in my personal life not workplace. When he couldn't get his own way, he damaged some of my personal property and tried to make trouble in my partner's workplace. My partner had nothing at all to do with the issue but he didn't know where I worked.

Reading the commentary about CM and her testimony, I get the idea that she is "normally" competent at her job, compared to everyone else at NHSFife who are abnormally incompetent. NC was able to throw up some errors and lack of procedure, which a skilled barrister could do with pretty much anyone who isn't a total and unbearable jobsworth with procedure at their day job.

Contrast with the clusterfuck of the rest.

Edit: deleted as I have answered my own question!

St Thingamajig, the patron saint of gadgets that turn out to be more trouble than they’re worth.

Thks to swiveled eyes for the not prissy answer. Tho I am not confident this.represents the wider NHS.
You know the 24 hours in a and e. Adult male trauma or adult female trauma specified. You don't have to be medically qualified to know that is relevant because of pelvic arrangements. Would KS go looking for DU's womb? Or be very cross if someone hinted that he might not have one? And i know that there are rare conditions. But we appear to be talking about a perfectly standard XY until a personal epiphany in recent times. I don't know if there is a standard timeline from being yes probably tend to GC views if I really thought about it to being Hell Yes. 4 days in my case. Though hell.yes would probably sound better in rich Fife tones. Opening the floor

I don’t think she said it was standard procedure. She said she ‘likes to’ so this with folk coming of suspension. I would imagine it would depend on the circs ans be most likely needed for nurses who have been careless ans made mistakes, or been rude to patient’s etc.

Given she has acknowledged the patient care claims were rubbish and the homophobia etc also rubbish I think she could have understood why SP saw it as punitive and in this case not insist on it. Nowhere does she assert it as standard practice.

Google suggests CM has previously been part of the squad for Dunfermline Ladies Rugby club, which is affiliated with Scottish Rugby - so I presume follows their gender rules and excludes transwomen from the women's team (unless it's a noncontact version). That policy was revised in early 2023 so CM definitely wouldn't have been changing with males in recent years.

There's plenty going on in the CofE church that makes her thesis of interest to me. I'm not personally a fan of that research method but it is not uncommonly used and it's a vehicle to explore a story that a lot of people would have an interest in.

Lots of folk on Twitter haven’t clocked LM said she changes with trans players. She didn’t say trans women so it was a clever trick I think.

They could have simultaneous or joint training sessions, and use the same CR at the same time even if the trans-identifying men don't play in matches.

She didn’t say she changed with Trans women. She said trans players. We can understand thia to mean she changes with trans men ie women.

Fife NHS seems to be the sort of pplace where there is so much managerial incompetence, they would bite the hand off anyone who came in with a confident "this is how I do things".

I think there is obvs much to criticise if you examine the testimony closely but I imagine CM would be well thought of by others who saw the tribunal disaster coming and knew this was on the cards.

I like to think she handled the well being room encounter with Upton in a calm but relatively cheery manner, ending not with a hug but by telling him it had been difficult but she was glad to have seen him face to face. Followed by a risk exit.

I think she actually said that supervision depends on the reason for suspension. That it wasn't always necessary. And that in Sandie's case it was to protect from further allegations of racism etc..