NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #32

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31

I can think of a few people who would appreciate receiving that mug!

It’s fascinating isn’t it.

There is genuine outrage that they are being held to account by a mere nurse and they know perfectly well that nurse would have no chance if it hadn’t been for Sex Matters.

They are not only outraged at their power being dented they have convinced themselves that Sex Matters’ comments and opinions, rather than the actual bin fire of failure revealed in the witness stand by their own witnesses, is what is guiding public opinion. It is classic head in the sand.

It follows, to some degree, logically from their self-serving expectation that the public should not be allowed access to the ET other than through highly mediated forms of media such as the BBC and the Guardian.

They feel they have an entitlement to control the narrative — and are outraged that the public have such unmediated access. This has happened because NC and her team plus TT made informed and reasonable arguments about public interest.

They are so used to controlling the narrative by controlling information they have absolutely no skills for managing public opinion more generally.

I think they still genuinely believe that they are right no matter what they do in the same way that Trump believes he has God’s stamp of approval ie that they themselves are a higher power.

I strongly believe that the hand pushing for this statement internally is Searle’s. The arrogance of it matches the arrogance of her email.

Both people were badly failed by their management, although Sandie more than Upton. If Upton had really been a female doctor he'd possibly have been comforted when distressed but then told, as he was, to go home and get some rest. Their clinical supervisor would then normally be told that perhaps she was not cut out for a&e and should be encouraged to consider other specialties. No-one would fall over themselves to get the nurse sacked.

How many women have to be harmed, before you realise this is a problem?

Ah, see, this plays into their "No transwoman has ever attacked a [cis] woman in a toilet or changing room" defence. As if only physical violence is being defended against.

There's no logic you can counter these people with. They believe that men can turn into women, and once you believe that...

When that sort if email goes out, your screwed, after the send button has been pressed it is too late.

I think some of the emails were sent late at night and it would have taken a while before the implications were fully appreciated and it was beyond remedy by then.

However IT have ways of recalling emails if not too much time has passed. DD works in my hospital trust, in a big department. She was much delighted at a management fuck up the other day, a break down list of all the members of staff currently off sick, with highly personal details was cleverly emailed to everyone in the department instead of just the senior management team. Most people were busy working and not glued to their phones and the email had been recalled by coffee break time when it was the key topic of discussion. Some people had been reading it when it evaporated before their eyes. But of course some people took screen shots...

I remember watching Gillian Malone give evidence on Thursday morning and, from the way her voice kept giving out and the way she kept reaching for her water and swallowing hard several times as she heard that Isla Bumba said she didn't know if she is female, I think she probably had not heard the news previously 😁

I think those who are suggesting that AI was involved in the statement are on to something.

It is difficult to believe any human with half a brain, even at Fife, could have sat at a keyboard and meticulously drafted such a long insane statement which had so many ramifications at this juncture of the proceedings.

It is easy to believe that a human asked AI to produce something and hit send without thinking. Especially at Fife.

Has he not wondered why you've been swearing constantly at your screen?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/356052072715

I'd be very grateful for enlightenment on this aspect of Sandie Peggie's case.
The trust (NHSF) says:
"As made clear during tribunal proceedings, the disciplinary process was initiated due to concerns raised about interactions with a colleague and patient care."
I had understood that SP was suspended as a result of her "confrontation" with DU. The "patient care" elements were added afterwards.
So is this understanding correct, and NHSF is still attempting to muddy the waters? Or was she suspended on both counts at the same time?
TIA
I am full of admiration for Sex Matters, Sandie, TT, the providers of TT updates etc.

What takes me to the fair about the statement is not just that the original has all the hallmarks of multiple authors, but instead of just taking the thing down (and maybe/maybe not coming back with one amended version) we've now got multiple versions in the public domain.

In a previous life I worked on a public inquiry. One reason why I never want to do that again is that, if a policy document had 28 versions, you needed to capture all 28 and put them, in chronological order, into a big massive pdf so the inquiry could see who made what amendment when.

There's a reason why bundles in these court cases are so big.

I'm going to assume that lurking somewhere behind the published statement(s) is a Word document with lots of metadata.

I know lawyers are often exasperated by their clients, but if I were JR my thoughts this weekend would be along the lines of "fuxache, how am I supposed to represent these muppets when they keep undermining their own position"

I've been sharing details of the tribunal with my nan who has done 50 years for the NHS, and still going, and she has definitely been peaked.

I think we're being unfair to AI here, by implying that anyone at Fife NHS management could out-think it...

@Largesso - it’s all the same vibe - the tribunal and the organisations behaviour.

Reverse victim and offender.

A man wants to undress and watch women undress. Everyone complies bar one woman. When this is aired it’s becomes clear who out of two was in fact emotional, manipulative, unsubstantiated and lying (Uptons I am a biological woman statement).

NHS Fife swallow the kool aid. When challenged because they failed at many points to take any actual steps of redress like taking care of woman per their protected characteristic or providing single sex spaces - only then did Sandie and Sex Matters say let’s get an independent arbiter to take a look. TT, open justice and Sex matters allow people a look at the truth. NHS Fife start bullying and ranting because they are being seen for what they are. They didn’t give a fig when Sandie or Sec Matters were harassed or threatened. They are not genuine about protecting all their employees. Only the believers.

It is easy to believe that a human asked AI to produce something and hit send without thinking. Especially at Fife.

My money’s on Isla for that one. She’d have been back at her desk yesterday.

I’m behind, but just wondering about this. Didn’t CE/NC say that the tribunal was moved from Edinburgh to Dundee for safety reasons? That threats to SP’s team had been received (which they deemed inappropriate to make public). If that is the case, it was before any open reporting of the tribunal itself. So, I don’t understand the insinuation that the problem is because people can get to see/read the shenanigans which occurred.

Also, when JR said (parahrasing) ‘well, this is what happens when you have open reporting being allowed’, did anybody think it was a bit close to the wind. Kind of like, ‘well, judgie boy, you are also kind of responsible for anything which happens, because you ruled for open justice and to allow reporting.’ Didn’t say those exact words, but I’d be raging at the cheek of that if I was the judge.

I really hope they come across as more professional and competent that the NHS Fife staff but I have a sneaking feeling that might not be the case. Hoping that the RCN have some records of the decisions though that might not be the case for a Fife RCN rep given the endemic behaviour there.

TBH, although NHS Fife's statement was deeply inappropriate, I do feel a lot of sympathy for all parties - claimant, respondents, and witnesses - in the light of the relentless and scathing commentary all across social media.

If I felt confident that we had reliably conscientious, objective, etc journalists (from a range of publications) reporting expertly and fairly on the tribunal at the end of each day, or a couple of times a week, I do think that would be preferable to the inevitably confused minute-by-minute ride-along.

It creates so much white noise. After a day of following live coverage and commentary I feel like couples do when they have been replaying the same arguments late into the night to the point of exhaustion. The original points get overlayed with anger and distress about how such-and-such was said, etc., and all that you can clearly remember is that you are right and your partner is unreasonable, misunderstanding, unjust, etc

I wonder how NHS would deal with this now eg if another TW Dr went into female changing room at the hospital tonight?

Perhaps that's why NHS are defending this case, to get a tribunal judgement about what should happen

If Tribunal rules that TW can use female changing facilities, NHS can tell SP and other female staff to put up and shut up

If Tribunal rules that TW cannot use female changing facilities, NHS can tell Dr Upton and any future trans staff to stay out

Settling SP's case would deal with the issue this time round, but the issue would just pop up again elsewhere at some point

If Sandie wins, then organisations up and down the uk will have to choose between(1) spending £££££ creating individual toilet cubicles and changing rooms to enable TW to feel validated as equal to females, or (2) tell TW to pee where they belong, and quietly take down the rainbow bunting. I predict (2) as (1) would be so expensive

I'll never vote SNP or Green again, having seen how they treat women. And I'm not alone. Let's hope MPs and MSPs pay attention

I think you are on to something here. Their actions are the actions of an organization used to the machinery working in their favour. But now we can all see this shit show unfold in real time there is no way for them to control the narrative.
Mealy mouth BBC headlines are so easy to refute.

Some of us prefer not to let journalists gatekeep the information that we get.

That's partly how we got into this mess.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/fife/5291845/neil-gray-confidence-nhs-fife-sandie-peggie/

You know when the board of a football club gives the manager its full support...

...you know it's about a week to go before the manager gets the sack or resigns.

Well that.

Ball of the century!

Aha! Perhaps laying groundwork for an appeal if they lose? I think an appeal can only proceed in legal grounds but perhaps also if an argument that legal process as erroneous in some way? Dunno

Her desk in her bedroom you mean? Do you think she’s ever been in an office in that job?