Islington Council slams 'botched' single sex spaces guidance

[IwantToRetire]

The council argues that the new guidance, which suggests that staff should check a person’s sex at birth before granting access to single-sex services or spaces, is unworkable and risks breaching individuals’ privacy and exposing them to harassment.

"Expecting reception staff in a busy leisure centre or a domestic violence service to determine whether someone is trans, without subjecting them to harassment or breaching their right to privacy, is not practical.

"It risks legal confusion and a culture of suspicion.

"That’s why we have called for the EHRC to pause this botched process – properly listening to trans communities – rather than simply causing further confusion."

Full article at https://www.times-series.co.uk/news/25283099.islington-council-slams-botched-single-sex-spaces-guidance/

Any transwoman using female toilets is taking the risk that they will be accused of voyerism or worse. It may be that in the end it can’t be proved but the process of getting to that point will be unpleasant.

And while we’re bringing up section 28 it is a bit disingenuous not to mention the context at the time of hundreds upon hundreds of young gay men dying painfully because of AIDS, with no cure, while it doesn’t excuse section 28 it makes it easier to understand how it came to be.

@AidaP
So Dave at work who hasn’t insisted everyone use female pronouns for him, hasn’t changed his appearance at all but inside he considers himself a woman. Is that stealth trans? Does he carry on using the men’s toilets? If he uses the women’s toilets then he’ll either have to explain his gender transformation and out himself, or suffer the women he works with complaining about him using the wrong facilities.
Or is stealth the men who don’t plaster themselves in make up and trans flags and scream at lesbians, but have long hair and wear sensible skirts? The ones that you see and within a nanosecond think ‘oh, a man in a skirt.’ They use women’s toilets and don’t directly harass anyone but still make all the women there feel uncomfortable and on edge, and because nobody has challenged them they think they have ‘passed’.
I mean, yeah, whatever, live your life. But if you are a man then don’t invade women’s spaces.

And I agree, no one needs to show their genital area to anyone. You were the one that suggested lifting your skirt. A cheek swab is an easy and respectful way to prove your sex.

The fact that it has to be spelt out that if you abide by the law, it's not a problem and no one should really have to be asking for proof but you have it available if you need it IS the point isn't it?

Men who persist or try and force their way in via the courts are really not going to win the hearts and minds battle.

If they don't win hearts and minds, then there will be a backlash. It's inevitable. It's like the laws of physics. And you can't defy them.

(All I can think of at this point in the morning is the lyrics to Star Trekkin'. I'm having a bout of insomnia and have been awake since 4am so this may explain my current madness)

Star Trekkin' across the universe
On the Starship Enterprise under Captain Kirk
Star Trekkin' across the universe
Boldly going forward, and things are getting worse!

Engine room, Mr. Scott:
Ye cannae change the laws of physics, laws of physics, laws of physics;
Ye cannae change the laws of physics, laws of physics, Jim

Ah! We come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill;
We come in peace, shoot to kill; Scotty, beam me up

It's gonna be a long day isn't it?!

These discussions are mostly for the benefit of the lurkers. I doubt anyone thinks that you can reason with Aida.

@ArabellaScott you are quite right. The more they explain to us that our consent doesn't matter, what is important is that we shut up and allow the desires of male people to take precedence, the more obvious it is that thos is just one more bit of rape culture.

The reason for "no debate" was because once they have to explain their beliefs, it becomes clear that it's all built on male privilege, male superiority, narcissism and the obliteration of a woman's right to say "no" to being used for the desires of a male.

I suspect the transwomen who don't want to retain male privilege are the ones who are perfectly ok with using unisex facilities and wouldn't dream of forcing themselves into anything that is single-sex for women. (I try to remember that some transwomen are in this category, though it's a shame they don't speak out and challenge those who are pretending to speak for them)

But yes. The more it is explained, the more obvious it becomes that the ones demanding access to women's spaces are very much the ones that can least be trusted in situations where women are vulnerable.

I demand access to the ladies changing room because my documents say I'm female. And if you deny me are you going to force me to have to prove my sex by getting my gentials out?

So he either gets his gentials out around the women
Or says to the women on MN that he'll be forced to get his gentials out to prove his sex.

It's such the winningest argument for allowing males in to female spaces when both options put forward by the male involve getting gentials out in the presence of women, isn't it?

Vindaloo, vindaloo.

"Expecting reception staff in a busy leisure centre or a domestic violence service to determine whether someone is trans, without subjecting them to harassment or breaching their right to privacy, is not practical“

Islington council give the impression that they believe they have to provide separate services for trans people.

Not clear how they have been operating single sex services previously, but if they think the public can’t be trusted to self regulate use, then the answer is correct ID. Presumably that is how they manage age restricted services.

I've never once come across a transwoman who is interested in genuine problems that women face.

Come on - I recall that women's student representative(?) in Labour, whose name I mercifully forget, wrote "end period poverty" on his hand in lipstick and posted a picture once.

What more do you want?

(And lots of other transwomen are very interested in periods.)

Lily Madigan.

Vanished with barely a trace after all the sexual assault allegations.

Wes Streeting's awkward moment of clashing with reality...

I'd love to know what Madigan's up to these days tbh. And how the family are.

Here we have the usual scolding, name calling, inability to understand the law, declarations the law does not apply to that poster, threats and appeals to talk to a person who believes their ‘identity’ is more important than other people’s reality and safety.

No thanks. Been there, done that. Men are not women.

The point about it not being a criminal offence for males to use female only toilets or changing rooms is valid.

In reality, once the EHRC guidance is published, the majority of service providers will get on with providing single sex services with gender neutral provision alongside it. The general public will be aware of the law and will see the third provision available. The vast majority will think it entirely unreasonable for a transwomen to use the female only provision when there is a perfectly acceptable provision available. This is already what most people want and expect but confidence about this being in line with the law will become more widespread.

The vast majority of trans people will use the gender neutral provision. I don’t think the majority of trans people fail to act in ways that conform with the Public Order Act, or fall fowl of anti-social behaviour laws. I don’t think they smoke on buses or flout the Highway Code. I expect that in the same way, they won’t ignore signage saying female only when they are male, knowing that it isn’t lawful for them to use it.

What we are left with are males who feel it is their right to use female only provision despite this being against the law and knowing that some of the female service users are distressed by their presence. They can tell themselves all kinds of stories about why they have the right to use the provision - but the bottom line is they are acting illegally and immorally.

It will always be fundamentally immoral for males, regardless of their vulnerability, to impose themselves on females in single sex provision. There is no past civil rights movement that aligns with what they are doing. Females with other protected characteristics have never been excluded from using female only provision.

Funnily enough, a couple of months back, I worked with a member of staff who worked in the school that was at the centre of the original Lily Madigan controversy. He moved on some time ago but had been told by ex colleagues that Madigan had detransitioned/ was calling himself non binary and had reverted to a male name.

Wibble wibble

I'm really unsurprised..

I wonder if the fragrant Lily is still best mates with Corbyn?

@AidaP understands nothing about being a female person in the world. Nothing at all.

But he won’t believe this because it’s a female person telling him, and he comes across as very male in his inability to ascribe humanity and respect to female people.

@AidaP WithSilverBells posted this link to the latest YouGov survey a few hours ago. Did you read it?

Where does the British public stand on transgender rights in 2024/25? | YouGov

It shows that only 19% of the public think that transwomen should be allowed to use women's changing rooms.

Can you please explain why you think you have a right to use women's changing rooms, when it's clear the vast majority of women don't want you there?

100%

If there's a mixed sex option but some men choose to use the women's then the issue is crystal clear.

Love a bit of hyperbole in the morning.

Even if TIMs continue to use the wrong facilities, the consensus will be on the side of women. So you won't get situations like "Rose" harassing the Darlington nurses and noone believing them. The "Roses" will be kicked out and prosecuted under sexual harassment laws if their behaviour is bad enough.

Sure some will slip through but the presumption of innocence is no longer on their side and that's huge.

Lesbians (female) saying they aren’t sexually attracted to males bodies (including transwomen) is not transphobia.

Again, you really show your TOTAL ignorance about being female.

Why would any decent person want to be in a lesbian dating app where they are not wanted? It’s not a space for you. And yet you want to be there anyway? Do you hope to trick a female lesbian for more validation? What happens when she realises you are male?

You are so disrespectful of female people. We are half the population, and we gave birth to every single human on the planet. I’d say we are worth some respect.

But you just keep pushing at our boundaries when they get in your way of your personal validation game. So UTTERLY male.

I hope everyone on the thread can see from this little swaggering male power trip why the GRA needs to be repealed.

Yes I lost all interest at this point.

Flashing is a sexual offense, and it's often an early step on the ladder to severe sexual offending. Threatening to flash women to control and coerce them into submission, well yes that adds even more weight to the likelihood of escalation. And I see we've reached the 'if you didn't make me angry I wouldn't have to abuse you' line as well.

It's instructive. These men are going to force the creation of new criminal offenses that have not been needed to this point in history. But the chances of getting a man like this to refrain from harassing and abusing non consenting women (as opposed to the consenting ones in the mixed sex spaces) without prosecution? And the evidenced values of such a man?

Well the evidence is everywhere now.

I also wonder logically, what is the long term outcome in law likely to be when it's proven to the electorate beyond all doubt that antisocial behaviour gets what it wants and law abiding people suffer?

Do we think Reform are going to fuck about over this and wibble about it being complicated? Because unless Labour gets its act together fast on this, and on other issues, we are going to all find out.