"We have always been here"

[DiamondThrone]

Been noticing this a lot. It seems to be the new #TWAW #nodebate #bekind, after those didn't work.

I mean - lots of things have "always been here". Like women, for instance 😄

Just interested in new terms that arise, and how they are used to try and shut down comment.

They haven’t though - or if they have it’s been in tiny numbers. It’s the same as them trying at appropriate the Stonewall riots etc. - it’s a load of bollocks

Oh no, you misunderstand. They have 'always been here' means throughout all of history and time. Before the big bang, trans identities floated disembodied throughout the nothingness.

They wouldn’t even be here if it wasn’t for the women that gave birth to them.

You are so right. Gravity, friction and transness were what enabled our world to exist.

Yes, men have always dressed as women - this is not new. What is new is the fact that there appears to be a belief that this means they have the right to insert themselves into women's spaces, and that anyone who dissents from this belief will be hounded, threatened and intimidated. It's the 21st century version of the witch hunts without the stakes.

Yeah this line always makes me wonder what the point is.

Men who want to be women have always been here - so what?

Men who dress in clothes more typical of women have always been here - ok why is this important?

Men who want to be women and demand access to women's spaces have always been here - yes and?

Makes no difference.

The transwomen I met / knew in 90s/ 00s were very much proudly transwomen. Not claiming to be actual women. And transvestites were transvestites, definitely not claiming to be women!

What we currently have is the authoritarian fundamentalist branch of the belief system. Which definitely hasn't always been here.

Proof that they were there 2,000 ago

Exactly, they didn't just give us 'gay rights' but life itself.

We are such ungrateful shits for calling out their sissy porn.

Edit. Although, now I see where the friction came in. 😬

It's only thanks to the influence of JKR that the Book of Genesis is censored, so the creation story omits the important bit where the Supreme Being watched an episode of Drag Race and saw that it was good.

Yeah, all that guff about 'resting on the seventh day' is clearly a devious edit by JKR the devil to cover up the truth.

I’ve heard it said that there were trans dinosaurs, 🦕 true story.

Kittens have always been small lawnmowers.

<shaking head> It really is a belief that if you just keep saying it, you make reality. Probably tied up with a lot of the 'manifesting' kind of beliefs. Along with Barnum's thing about 'you can fool some of the people all of the time'.

And no. There have not 'always been' men in women's hospital wards raping and assaulting and harassing women, nor in women's changing rooms, nor in their prisons, nor in their breast feeding groups, nor in lesbian groups, nor requiring everyone to chant mantras, nor insisting that sex isn't a thing and women having words is 'hate'. Nor medicating and sterilising children. Nor peeing in public places like angry toddlers and waving placards threatening sexual violence and murder. Nor idiots with beards saying they are 'expanding the bandwidth' of womanhood.

These bits are the problem. They are of very recent origin and those are the bits that need to stop. People wanting to identify and dress as whatever the hell they like really isn't, and yes, that's been around a while.

The instant retort is the "we've always done it that way" would mean we still have slavery, no female suffrage and the age of consent being 12.

Never,. Never ever try and use that as the sole justification for anything within my earshot.

Trying to create fake validation. Like the idea you are always sharing bathrooms etc with them without realising all the time - I’d notice a big hulking bloke thanks .

The obvious retort to "We have always been here" is that murderers, or whatever, have also always been here. Doesn't mean it's a good thing!!

To which you would get the reply "YOU ARE CALLING TRANS PEOPLE MURDERERS!! YOU ARE LITERALLY JK ROWLING!!"

Just let's be on the lookout for their new validation attempt, as a PP said.

People who believe they are "really", or live best as, the opposite sex have always been there, in every culture, just as people who believe they are connected to some type of animal exist in every culture, and people who believe they understand messages from the dead exist in every culture.

Birth, Death, Sex, Nature and our place in it. The universal mysteries.

The knowledge of the sex binary, of death and of animals has been with humanity as long as we have had the capability to observe and build stories around our observations. These things are both fundamental and everyday and yet unknowable, so every human culture has found them a source of mystery and layered meaning over them and that makes them go-to metaphors or explanations for a lonely, imaginative or distressed mind looking for answers.

Saying because people we might today call "trans" have always been around their claim to be really the opposite sex in a meaningful way outside their own head must be true is as illogical as saying precognition must be real because people who believe they can tell the future have always been around.

Fine. But your 'here' is in the spaces for your sex.

Well spotted. 'Shifting goalposts' is obviously a tactic,[ or strategy, I can never remember the difference and even if I could, which would it be?]
'Born in the wrong body' was quietly shelved. TWAW now is no longer a claim that transwomen are, like, literally women. And so on. All to make genderwoo more palatable to an increasingly sceptical public.

I've also noticed that GC phrases used to critique trans ideology, like 'cognitive dissonance', are now being used by TRAs against GC arguments.

It's a good idea to be aware of these shifts and to call them out whenever they occur.

edited to say that of course it is ahistorical and anachronistic to say that transgender people 'have always been here' since the concept of 'transgender' is such a recent invention.

I've also noticed that GC phrases used to critique trans ideology, like 'cognitive dissonance', are now being used by TRAs against GC arguments.

Yeah, 100%, I noticed that a while ago with the TRA posters on this board.

The thing is, they can never put any analysis behind those words. And we can, because we used the words to label an observation, rather than just grabbing the words and trying to work backwards to make them mean what they want them to mean.

(Which is not surprising as that is pretty much Genderism in a nutshell - assert a claim to a word then say whatever seems expedient at the time to justify it. No coherency as there is no actual underlying mental model of reality for any of this, just the immediate wants).

I'm pretty sure they just pick these concepts up from us, perhaps not even consciously, as A Bad Thing, then when they want to dig it us they grab the words out of their mental Bag of Bad Things. "GC are bad so this Bad Thing must apply".

AFAICS the first use of the phrase "trans woman" was less than thirty years ago. The phrase previously used was "male transexual".

It's less than a hundred years ago that oestrogen & testosterone were discovered let alone synthesised & given to transexuals.

There was a little experimental gender reassignment surgery in the twenties & thirties but it wasn't until the 1960s that the likes of April Ashley & Jan Morris had their operations.

It's only in the last 10-15 years that there has been an explosion in those claiming to be "trans" with a couple of distinct demographics. Middle aged men & adolescent girls.

Yes, men have always been here. Well, not always, but for about 300,000 as modern humans. Just like women have. Both were here at the same time: obviously.