"We have always been here"

[DiamondThrone]

Been noticing this a lot. It seems to be the new #TWAW #nodebate #bekind, after those didn't work.

I mean - lots of things have "always been here". Like women, for instance 😄

Just interested in new terms that arise, and how they are used to try and shut down comment.

1. trans people claim to be members of the opposite sex, not an inbetween sex - what's 'intersex' go to do with anything?

2. what is the reproductive cell produced by 'intersex' people? there are ova produced by women, sperm produced by men, and...?

3. the correct term these days is disorders of sexual development (DSD's). 'Intersex' is rather dehumanising - all humans have a sex, and it is either male or female.

4. There are lots of humans born for example with only one foot. Does this mean humans are not bipedal?

There are plenty of people who ‘believe’ the earth is flat, they are also wrong.

Anyway, this thread was to point out the new position of "We have always been here".

Look out for it in the wild, and counter it.

Because WE have also always been here.

Of course gender isn't a binary. Gender is imaginary, so the possibilities are limitless.

Sex is real though, and the possibilities are not limitless.

It's relevant to the argument that there is a biological sex binary ('man'/'woman') that is sacred as people have described.

A good example of women taking on male roles would be Joan of Arc. She dressed like a man and lead an army into battle. According to @springbirdss that would she was “trans” wouldn’t it. The fact she was not a man, and no one believed for one minute she was a man kind of squashes that idea. Sometimes you’ve just gotta accept people did things that were going against the norm. Doesn’t mean they were anything other than the sex they were.

At 20.08, you stated that:"The comment about 'gender as a spectrum' came from GC people on this thread who have said that's what they believe!! Are you going to challenge them too? I didn't pluck it out of nowhere 😂."

When I looked back through the thread, it was you who introduced the idea that gender is a spectrum at 18.45 when you posted: "What it does seem to prove is that gender identity is a spectrum."

You were quoted, but there was no agreement on the specific idea that 'gender was a spectrum'.

So yes, I am challenging that. Please quote where 'GC people' said that's what they believe, in case I missed it.

what is the reproductive cell produced by 'intersex' people? there are ova produced by women, sperm produced by men, and...?

So people are defined by their reproductive cells?

the correct term these days is disorders of sexual development (DSD's). 'Intersex' is rather dehumanising - all humans have a sex, and it is either male or female.

That's why I said 'previously known as intersex conditions' in brackets....

There are lots of humans born for example with only one foot. Does this mean humans are not bipedal?

It means that humans don't have to be bipedal, yes!

so what are the other sexes called, which gamete do they produce and what us their role in reproduction? And don’t use people with DSD as an example of a third sex. That is offensive and dehumanising. Do better.

it's not 'sacred', it's just real

men can't gestate babies. ever.

women (of the right age with no health issues, yadda yadda), can

it's just reality I'm afraid

I'm not using them as an example of a third sex AT ALL.

Would you say that a person with DSD who identifies as a woman but has some male anatomy is not a woman?

Hopefully not.

So people are defined by their reproductive cells?

their sex is. whether they can be CEOs, wonderful parents, composers etc is not

It means that humans don't have to be bipedal, yes!

you wouldn't describe humans as a bipedal species? if your baby was born with one or three feet you would think that was completely normal?

That is literally not what I was saying. Please don't wilfully misread my posts, it does not give you credibility.

Dame Mary Bankes, custodian of Corfe Castle during the English Civil War, is always portrayed with a sword in her hand, as she participated in the defence of the castle during a siege. She was buried with her sword. Traditionally, women in the 17th century didn’t use swords. This doesn’t make her a man, this doesn’t means she identified as a man. She was a woman. Your argument is quite patently absurd.

It should depend on which DSD they had. You do know each DSD affects either male or female people don’t you?

It depends what DSD they have and whether they are in fact male or female.

What does this have to do with trans people?

Oh my, you don't understand this at all!

Gender critical people believe

• there are two sexes (the small number of people with DSDs not withstanding).
• some physical capabilities and limitations are determined by sex, the big one being reproductive roles, but also likelihood of strength, speed etc
• personalities are not gendered at birth
• society has constructed gender roles based on sex that tend to affect how we are treated and how we think of ourselves
• female people in particuar are disadvantaged by the gender contructs around womanhood and by the way society supports (and does not support) the extra reproductive demands on women

So for gender critical people, the idea that someone can be innately the "wrong" gender for their sex is meaningless because we don't believe their is a right "gender" for anyone's sex in the first place. We see gender as an external framework that constrains everyone, but especially women.

Gender Critcal people entirely accept that (leaving aside the more fetishistic elements of trans identities) trans people may feel that their personality is wrong for their sex, but we'd say what is actually going on is that the trans person's own prejudices and social conditioning are what is telling them they are somehow wrong for their sex.

So when I say transness requies strict gender roles, what I mean is that transness has no meaning unless you (a) believe that some personalities are "cis" to the male sex and some to the female sex, and (b) that most people align to the "cis" personality for their sex, but trans/gender fluid people are different. Which to me is firstly very sexist to believe that the difference between men and women is in how we think rather than just our bodies, and secondly very arrogant to assume that everyone who looks gender conforming falls into these mental gender boxes.

For me as a GC person, "transitioning" between boxes is just about playing around inside the rules of sexism. The real freedom is to get rid of the boxes.

Credibility you say? My irony meter just exploded.

There are lots of humans born for example with only one foot. Does this mean humans are not bipedal?
It means that humans don't have to be bipedal, yes!

Say what?????

Yeah. One sex is born with eggs. The other sex isn't.

Is it time for the spegg?

From what they have written, Spring doesn't understand the Universal Biological Definition of sex, so DSDs are going to be a challenge.

If that person was a male with 5ard like Imane Khelif then yes I'd say that he was not a woman

That's not an argument, it's a fact.

Everyone is either male or female, including people with DSDs and trans people.

Trans people are no more likely to have a DSD than anyone else.

If they have male chromosomes they are a man. Leave out the word ‘identity’ and it makes it very easy to understand.