"We have always been here"

[DiamondThrone]

Been noticing this a lot. It seems to be the new #TWAW #nodebate #bekind, after those didn't work.

I mean - lots of things have "always been here". Like women, for instance 😄

Just interested in new terms that arise, and how they are used to try and shut down comment.

I didn't say GC people believe in a gender binary. I said GC people believe ( or should I say recognise) there is a sex binary.

Gender is a social or even a philosophical concept.

I don't believe gender is a spectrum at all. I believe men and women can present however they like, whichever sex they are. Some will describe themselves as all the modern labels of gender identity. I do not have a gender identity.

I also accept that trans people have a different philosophical position to me, and non binary people can choose to describe themselves that way if it feels right for them. I don't have to believe in it any more than I believe or don't believe in God.

Yes, know several trans and non binary people thanks.

Nothing I've said is offensive. Nothing I've said is difficult. I don't subscribe to the same beliefs as you. That's ok.

I don't know why you'd presume anything about me at all.

But to answer you, if someone wants me to use they/them, I will. I don't go round stating my pronouns because for decades on this planet I experienced the world as a woman and didn't have to go round telling anyone. I just simply am a woman. And everyone knows this.

I don't want anyone to use their beliefs to describe me. I reject cis. I reject stating pronouns for myself. If I can use they/them, and be respectful, then others can do the same for me.

And you know what.... We do! There's zero issue with any trans person I know personally or vice versa.

You are already obtuse as well as acute, lovely @Boiledbeetle

John Rykener was a male prostitute who dressed as a woman to procure men. Dressing as a woman doesn’t change your sex, he’s still a man, whether he lived in the 14th or the 21st century. Is that the most ‘recent example’ you have, nearly 800 hundred years ago?

You’ve got that very wrong I’m afraid. I don’t know where you got your definition of gender critical from?

Gender critical beliefs are explicitly against gendered stereotypes.

We believe (know) that there are two sexes, it’s a reproductive function, male/female, it’s just biology.

Gender expression can be what you like. Girls who have short hair/don’t like pink/like maths are just as much girls as those who want to play with make up all day. Boys who like dolls/hate football/ like glitter pens and rainbows are just as much boys as those who like cars and climbing trees.

Your likes/dislikes hobbies, skills and interests do not define if you are a boy/girl or woman/man.

A woman can be whatever she wants, and a man can be whatever he wants. That is a wonderful thing that we should celebrate. But a person’s sex will not change.

Trans activists seems to believe that it is outward expression and likes/dislikes that makes you a man or a woman. To GC people this seems incredibly stereotyped and limiting. And quite offensive; long hair and lipstick are not what make a woman; we are infinitely richer and more variable and deeper and interesting. All that connects us is our biology and shared experience of growing up female in a world where we are smaller and weaker than the other sex, and a huge amount flows from that.

So GC people believe that where services and facilities are separated by sex, it is because of our sexed bodies. Female people are vulnerable to assault by male people. Statistically speaking. We also have to deal with child-bearing (disadvantage in the workplace).

We believe that dividing things by sex (where division is necessary at all) should NOT be replaced with dividing things by “gender identity”.

I love maths and woodwork and driving cars. But that doesn’t make me a man. That’s just gender stereotypes of which I am critical.

How they ‘identified’ is irrelevant, we know that they were either men or women, no matter how they were dressed, how they were buried or what they were buried with.

This supports that people who dressed as the opposite sex existed, but it reinforces that people can’t change sex.

If gender is a load of bollocks (as we all agree) it is, and sex is binary and immutable, can we all agree sex is not assigned at birth, but is fixed at the point of conception and can be observed even before birth. @springbirdss what do you think?

It’s a sex binary, GI is a misogynistic social construct designed by men to oppress women.

What is it evidence of exactly? That someone wore what was considered to be the clothing of the opposite sex? That’s a ridiculously massive leap to assume that person was ‘transgender’, especially that ‘transgender’ didn’t exist until very recently.

? I'm a Viking atheist. Although I could be persuaded to spend the afterlife in a great big pub in the sky. 😍🍺

"Assume"

It could just as well be that there was a class of warrior that had a special type of burial and was also usually occupied by men, but sometimes by women. But those women weren't having a "male" burial, they were having a "warrior class C" burial.

Spring. The idea was introduced in a post on page 3, see quote below.

"What it does seem to prove is that gender identity is a spectrum."

Written by your good self.

Trans dinosaurs were invented by Steven Spielberg in 1993.

I ask this politely (seriously, I'm not trying to wind people up here or cause offence, I'm just genuinely curious)

Surely differences in sexual development (once known as intersex conditions) prove that there isn't a biological sex binary?

If it's possible to be born with sex hormones or chromosomes that don't correspond with your genitals, doesn't that mean that nature is more mysterious than you give it credit for?

Surely if our existence hinged solely on our reproductive function, we would all be heterosexual?

You mention child bearing as a defining characteristic of womanhood. I would argue that it can be, but that women who are born without wombs (MRKH syndrome for example) or other causes of infertility, are no less 'woman' than I am. Would you agree?

‘If gender is a spectrum (which seemingly we all agree it is’ pretty sure we don’t agree on any such thing, you like making assumptions don’t you?!

’you agree that gender is fluid’ again, pretty sure we don’t agree with that.

’I presume you are accepting of non-binary people and their preferred pronouns?’ again, not really, non binary means nothing does it? How can one agree with something that has no meaning? I wouldn’t agree to calling a man ‘she’ under any circumstances, and the SC ruling says I don’t have to.

No, DSDs reinforce the sex binary.

Sorry, I don't know what you mean?

I believe gender is a spectrum, I don't believe in a binary; neither do any of the trans people I know.

How have I contradicted myself exactly?

My favourite colour is orange. The whole should adapt to this.

House!!! I had DSD as the middle square! 3 tunnocks for meeeeee 🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟

‘If gender is a spectrum (which seemingly we all agree it is’ pretty sure we don’t agree on any such thing, you like making assumptions don’t you?!

Not an assumption!! That was directly in response to a couple of your friends on this thread who said they agreed.

It's all there, isn't it?

Bloody Spielberg, leave the dinosaurs alone!

Women have pretended to be men in order to escape patriarchal oppression and to be able to do things women weren't historically allowed to do.

The fact that so many girls and young women are now pretending to be boys and men for much the same reason ought to give us pause for thought. It's certainly not a sign of progress.

How is this relevant to trans people?

Sure Jan.