Reflections on Trans Arguments

[LimeFinch]

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

That's nice dear 😂
What's for dinner? I'm thinking I fancy a nice grilled salmon with fennel and new potatoes.
You?

Just the fact that we’re having this exchange debunks the claim no one ever says it!!
Well, quite

oh thanks, OP. I had never given it much thought up to now.

#TranzRoolz

NO.

But one question:
Why would you like men to go into women and girls toilets and bathrooms?

Assuming you do.....

Equal to what? I think Trans women should be treated equally to all other men and trans men should be treated equally to all other women.
What they shouldn't get is the extra ability to falsify official documents and have a lie treated as the truth.

Where to even start?

also @LimeFinch if you are going to try to be amusing get it right

Any fule knowe that!

The expression you are looking for is "as ane fule kno"

HTH

@LimeFinch The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues

Right, and have you recognised your own?

When you put it like that, I have to say, I don’t know if I can take the responsibility. I have trouble remembering to feed the cat…

(Panic not, she reminds me.)

@LimeFinch your post is so funny I spat my tea out and scared the neighbour's cat (who was visiting on the scrounge)!
Oh bless, I needed a good giggle today!
Is it the heat that has affected you?

Quite. And it's not just about professional sports is it? It's about grassroots sports, school sports, college sports. Women and girls should have the right to fairly and safely participate in sports at all levels, and they are put at risk if men are allowed to compete with them.

Transgender extremism doesn't exist

And no transgender extremist ever held up a placard that said "decapitate terfs" and no transgender extremists emptied bottles of piss outside the EHRC or insects at an LGBA conference. Or maybe they're not transgender extremists at all and it's just normal behaviour for transgender people. But I do hope it's extremists.

Ooo, sounds lovely - just right for this heat. Do you marinate your salmon?

They already had equality.

Then they stole some of womens rights which made it unequal.

Thanks to SC we're equal again...

They don’t want equal treatment, they want rights that aren’t theirs, ie women’s rights, and the Supreme Court said NO. Cope.

@TwoLoonsAndASprout

I was just about to ask @Boiledbeetle if I have had the powers long enough to initiate an apprentice but if you are doubting yourself I don't think you are ready.

What IS a trans person though? How would you treat men for the affliction of having glittery welly boots?

Well, I am genuinely grateful to the OP for one thing and that's for dragging the conversation away from toilets to remind us of the many other areas GI has affected. It's quite something when you see it all listed out like that. Thanks OP.

Thank goodness you've explained it all for my silly little brain to understand.
Ps fuck off

You and your bloody potatoes.

Quite right, quite right. I think I need a while longer stirring the cauldrons before I can be let into the inner circle. Might blow the house up otherwise…

It’s not about you potatoes!

What a load of partisan rubbish. I could source and post different links showing studies reaching different conclusions for all your points.

I was going to post my rebuttal to your assertion that trans women don’t claim to be female by quoting the vile India Willoughby (you know, the one who calls middle-aged women "biddies", and makes fun of any woman whose appearance doesn’t reach the Barbie standard India thinks is necessary to be a woman - but I see others have already done it.)

I assume you were joking when you said "transgender extremism doesn’t exist". Look at this link and then see if you still think it’s true.

https://terfisaslur.com/

Take your male rights activism elsewhere OP.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!

I mean, that Amnesty link wrings it's hands over the blocked GRR Bill (which was pretty extreme) but anyway...

Here's one of the extreme demand examples which comes to mind. And bear in mind that this isn't some loner in a basement. This is a national organisation -

https://www.tumblr.com/edinburghath/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

And in terms of extremism, the complete removal of any and all single sex services would seem to most rational people to be extreme but Stonewall et all had a good go at it -
https://womansplaceuk.org/2018/06/25/references-to-removal-of-single-sex-exemptions/

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!

I mean -

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/ban-on-puberty-blockers-to-be-made-indefinite-on-experts-advice

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!

I mean, it's nuts to equate breast reduction surgery to a double bilateral mastectomy. I'm sure anyone rational can see that.

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!

As said before - www.shewon.org

Some names just off the top of my head - Lia Thomas, Laurel Hubbard, Rachel/Ivy McKinnon, that big burly bloke in Australian Women's football, Emily Bridges, the Flying Bats....

And how many mediocre male athletes are to be permitted to push women out their own sporting categories and take podium places?

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!

www.boysvwomen.com

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!

As above. And you know, the evidence of our eyes, experience and human history.

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!

They're men. You might not like that but reality doesn't care.

'No one says they've actually changed sex'- tell that to the deranged India Willoughby or the numerous attention seekers pretending that they (men) experience period pain.

Trans History is Different to Women's History

Men aren't a type of women. HTH.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!

A man in a dress is a man in a dress. He can wear a dress if he likes (or a swishy skirt or long hair or nail varnish or any of the male gaze stereotypes which men associate with women). Doesn't make him a woman.

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!

90 odd % of transwomen keep their penis. Previously, under self ID, all they had to say is 'I'm a woman', to access single sex services.

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!

Mermaids.

And

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/24/an-explosion-what-is-behind-the-rise-in-girls-questioning-their-gender-identity