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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Reflections on Trans Arguments

885 replies

LimeFinch · 18/06/2025 16:17

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
42
krustykittens · 18/06/2025 17:48

"I am going to insult you and then convince you I am right by being as patronising as possible, while using arguments that have been proved over and over to be pure and utter bollocks."

Thanks for that, OP, I feel so educated now.

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 18/06/2025 17:49

Just started reading this thread…not sure how its gonna go especially as

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult

is a complete and utter lie

Igmum · 18/06/2025 17:50

I just wanted to say how nice it is to debate these important issues seriously, and with robust evidence well-expressed instead of the usual semi-literate and poorly reasoned drive-by scolds from people who simply don’t engage.

Wait, what?

TheKeatingFive · 18/06/2025 17:51

ninjahamster · 18/06/2025 16:28

You are brave posting this! FWIW I agree with the points you make.

What you think men can become women?

I'm sorry your education was so lacking.

UnWilly · 18/06/2025 17:52

Thanks OP, if only you had told us earlier, just think how much sooner and easier this could have all been resolved!

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 18/06/2025 17:52

BeLemonNow · 18/06/2025 17:47

To be fair I only scanned the first three as I could feel my brain cells melting.

Bookmark this thread and come back and read the rest if you ever need a really good laugh.

GailBlancheViola · 18/06/2025 17:52

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/06/2025 17:44

“Reflections on Trans Arguments”

trans activist arguments are shite and unconvincing and misogynistic. Hope that meets the brief.

And homophobic, and racist.

KateShugakIsALegend · 18/06/2025 17:52

Translation:

"Dear readers, you are wrong. I will put you straight.

Here is a cheery-picked random selection of links to prove my point and show you how wrong you are. I am not interested in your perspectives, by the way, just on transmit here, not receive.

Phew! Job done."

Does this tone / approach often work for you @LimeFinch ?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/06/2025 17:54

OuterSpaceCadet · 18/06/2025 17:47

i want the laugh react emoji and I want it now

Me too.
I love plop and runs who post a load of risible drivel and then scoot off back to the Reddit basement shouting "I told them, I really did" 😂

Well done to all the wims for so many informative and bigly responses 👏

Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/06/2025 17:54

Well im shocked I tell you that yhe OP hasn’t returned

Probably too busy telling everyone on Reddit how he told the ‘Karen’s’ on mumsnet how it is 🙄

IllustratedDictionaryOfTheDoldrums · 18/06/2025 17:54

This has to be the most bonkers OP I've seen in a while although it is interesting how some people's minds work.
I've not clicked through all the 'citations' but the ones I have say the exact opposite of what he's claiming.
For example, on puberty blockers, he puts:
They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
Then follows it up with a link to https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/ which literally states that there is not enough evidence on their clinical safety and effectiveness.
If you click on the BMJ link, it is literally titled: Puberty blockers: No evidence that a ban has led to “surge” in suicides, finds review.
The citations provided literally say the opposite of what is being claimed in the OP.
I mean presumably he must have at least looked at them in order to write the post? Why pick stuff that disproves his point? I can only assume he hasn't read them and assumes we'll be as lazy. Absolutely batshit.
*Edited to say I've used the word literally too many times here, but that is what the links actually show. Unhinged.

DiamondThrone · 18/06/2025 17:55

No trans woman claims to be biologically female

Oh dear OP, must try harder. Let me introduce you to TIM Katy Montgomerie:

https://bsky.app/profile/katymontgomerie.com

Reflections on Trans Arguments
BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/06/2025 17:55

the OP doesn't come across as entirely well does he? and how very surprising that he hasn't re-engaged with the thread. I'm all astonishment.

If his thread was some kind of exercise in winning hearts and minds, I've got to wonder how he thinks it went

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/06/2025 17:57

Boiledbeetle · 18/06/2025 17:27

100 more anti clockwise cauldron stirs on a wet Wednesday and then we'll see!

Maybe

Probably not

𝐎𝕣 𝘆ⓞ𝒖 𝚌𝓸🅤𝖑𝒹 𝓉𝐫𝙮 𝘣🅡🄸🅱𝙞🅽𝑔 𝙢𝚎 𝚠ⓘ🆃𝒉 𝑎 𝑻ⓤ𝒏𝓷𝚘𝐜𝔨'𝘀 𝒯𝘦🅰𝕔𝓪🄺𝔢

Will a caramel wafer do? It’s dark chocolate…

Sandy420 · 18/06/2025 17:57

There aren't 'types' of women, how incredibly offensive. Being a black woman doesn't make you a 'type' of woman. You're either a woman or you're not, and if you were born male then you're not.

'Woman' is more than just a 'social' role, how offensive again - it is also a biological sex. Woman = Adult female human being - I done read it in teh dicktionary.

Now you know what a woman is and isn't, hopefully you'll be able to work out what toilet to use. I mean any fule should know - but you sadly seem to lack any critical thinking skills.

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 18/06/2025 17:58

I’m gonna start calling these types of threads a PAPO

posted and pissed off…

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/06/2025 17:59

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 18/06/2025 17:58

I’m gonna start calling these types of threads a PAPO

posted and pissed off…

Plopped and pissed off

💩💩💩

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/06/2025 18:01

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 18/06/2025 17:58

I’m gonna start calling these types of threads a PAPO

posted and pissed off…

The OP knew that making an opening post with phrases like *Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard! *would be so sure to win everyone over to his point of view that there was no need to stick around silly!

TheKeatingFive · 18/06/2025 18:02

Also IF no transwomen claimed to be biologically female, on what grounds would they be claiming access to women's spaces and sports?

Male 'entitlement to things that don't belong to them' grounds?

nutmeg7 · 18/06/2025 18:03

Keepthecat · 18/06/2025 16:56

I'm glad to see this. I feel there's definitely a climate on this forum in which I feel it's not popular to support equal treatment for trans people.

Equal treatment, yes, no problem.

No discrimination in employment, great.

Preferential treatment, such as accessing facilities and services set up for the opposite sex, no.

akkakk · 18/06/2025 18:04

I am really sorry that this is not being taken seriously - I will answer each point in turn:

  • 1 - No - wrong
  • 2 - No - wrong
  • 3 - No - wrong
  • 4 - No - wrong
  • 5 - No - wrong
  • 6 - No - wrong
  • 7 - No - wrong
  • 8 - No - wrong
  • 9 - No - wrong
  • 10 - No - wrong
  • 11 - No - wrong

Hope that helps - any other thoughts you wish to share, I am always available for a detailed critique...

Waitwhat23 · 18/06/2025 18:07

Oh and some more examples of trans extremism (or at the very least violent and unpleasant behaviour)

Some notes for those who haven't seen these images before -

The cartoon is a collage of many of the violent actions taken publicly by TRA's

The 'only good terf is a dead terf' is only one of multiple identical signs displayed at the recent protests against the Supreme Court judgement. There were others, expressing similar sentiment.

The ones of a bloke holding a knife and a baseball is big Beth, who the leader of the Scottish Lib Dems 'did it all for' in regards to the GRR Bill.

The infamous 'decapitate terfs' sign. The women standing in front of it smirking includes the Scottish Government's Minister for Equalities.

Reflections on Trans Arguments
Reflections on Trans Arguments
Reflections on Trans Arguments
Reflections on Trans Arguments
Helleofabore · 18/06/2025 18:07

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!

There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

You point is irrelevant. It doesn't matter 'how many' are competing and it certainly doesn't matter whether they are 'dominating' or not.

It is certainly about fairness, but it is about safety. Even ONE male playing can cause significant injuries to other competitors.... or did you forget that?

https://www.kuam.com/story/46261367/tiyan-rugby-coach-calls-for-ban-on-transgender-players-after-injuries-at-weekend-match

Guam. One player injures three female players in just one game. There are numerous stories like this, I am very happy to link more.

One male player can cause significant injuries and significant harm to many players.

here is one analysis:

hecheateddotorg
18th March 2025

To analyze performance differences between "trans"-identified male and actual female participants in girls' sport, we need look no further than girls' high school track and field.

Track and field provides the clearest data as it is an individual sport and has had the highest number of recorded male participants to date at the high school level.

There are a total of 37 male athletes on record who have participated in girls' high school track and field in the United States.

Of these 37, one athlete participated in only one race due to the cancellation of the season during the COVID 19 pandemic. Another athlete participated in a tech/private school league that did not participate in a state championship. These two athletes will be excluded from the data.

Out of 1,276 completed events, male athletes finished as follows:
1st place: 440 (34%)
2nd place: 188 (15%)
3rd place: 123 (10%)
Other: 485 (41%)

Male athletes came in 1st 34% of the time, only 7% less often than they did than any other place outside the top 3.

They finished in the top three in 59% of their events and outside the top eight in only 19% of their events.

24 of the 35 male athletes (68%) qualified for their respective State Championship meet in a total of 136 events.

When looking at athletes competing against same-sex peers, depending on the state and division of competition, anywhere from 5 to 15% of athletes are expected to qualify.

For example in states that use regional-sectional qualification, the top 4 finishers at a regional meet (often with 2 heats of 8 runners each) qualify for the sectional meet where the top 4 finishers at the sectional then advance to State. This means that out of 32 runners at regionals, only 4 (12.5%) will advance to State.
This number also does not take into account the fact that only the best runners on a team will be entered in a regional meet and often the same runner will qualify in multiple events. A runner may also have a higher chance of qualifying in a relay as 8 runners (top 2 teams) advance to state rather than 4 in this type of qualification.

In other types of qualification or less competitive, smaller regions, it may be easier to qualify.

At the State Championship meet, there are typically 24 entries in each event. 1 of the 24 will win, meaning 4% of the 15% of athletes who have qualified for state will be a state champion, or 0.6%.

Of the 24 male athletes who qualified for state against girls, 11 of them (46%) have won a state championship title, or 31% of the total.

4 of the 35 male athletes (11%) have also achieved a top 10 national ranking.
The percentage of male athletes who have been in the top 10 of all track and field athletes in the female division in the entire nation is higher than the percentage of female athletes who have won a state title.

To find the percentage of female athletes who are in the top 10, we can take the 57 indoor and outdoor events ranked on milesplit. com multiplied by 10 (10 athletes in each) then divide by the total number of female athletes in high school track and field - 506,015 (according to nfhs. org).

This number does not take into account the fact that many athletes in the top 10 appear there in multiple events and several of the 57 events are less commonly run. (All 4 male athletes in the top 10 achieved that placement in a main event).
This means less than 0.11 percent of female athletes achieve a top 10 ranking.

"But not all states require hormone therapy!"

It is true that some states do not require males to undergo any sort of testosterone suppression or medical intervention in order to compete against girls.

We can therefore, look to the athletes who have reportedly begun "identifying" as the opposite sex and undergone "medical interventions" prior to puberty or in early middle school as it has been proposed that males who do so are in line with "average female performance."

There are 3 athletes who have reportedly "transitioned" prior to puberty. Based on their feminized appearances and high voices, we can infer this included puberty blockers.

All 3 athletes qualified for the state championship meet, 2 of the athletes were conference champions, and one athletes was not only a state champion and New England champion, but he was ranked in the national top 10.

None of these performances are in line with an "average" athlete. In fact, the national ranking out of three athletes is statistically unlikely to the point of being impossible without an athletic advantage.

"But you just know about the athletes who are good. There could be more you don't hear about because they don't win anything."

When we look at the expected percentages, we can see that about 6 out of 1,000 athletes win state and 1 out of 1,000 are in the top 10 national ranking.
In order to see the 24 males as state champions and 4 males in the top 10, there should be around 4,000 males who have competed in the girls' division in track and field. (3,965 additional athletes, none of whom can have won a state title).

There have been 37 on record.

Numerous state senators and legislators have come forward testifying to the number of "trans"-identifying males participating in their states.

When these legislators testify that there have "only been 2" in the state, or in the case of Ohio, 17 athletes in 8 years, and these numbers include all sports, and when male athletes have been banned from participating in girls' sports in about half of the states in the nation, it is not likely that there are an additional 3,963 male athletes that not only does nobody know about, but who also have not won a single state title.

In regards to the prepubescent "transitioners," there should be an additional 1,000 of them who have not won a state title or achieved a top 10 ranking. This is also highly unlikely, as we've seen multiple prepubescent "transitioners" in other sports also winning national and state championship titles.

Male participation in the female division is not just unfair, it is blatantly so.
These percentages do not reflect the cost to the female athletes behind them. Just 2 male athletes in cross country and track and field in Maine have negatively impacted over 2,000 female athletes.

If each male athlete negatively impacted 500 female on average, that means over 18,500 female high school track and field athletes in the United States have been forced to compete against and have been negatively impacted by these boys.

This includes loss of titles, loss of medals, loss of relay spots, loss of entries in large meets, loss of qualifications for championships, loss of records, loss of privacy, and loss of confidence.

*2 male athletes in Maine negatively impacted over 1,600 girls

3 boys in Washington, over 2,000

hecheated also have done this other analysis:

"Men and boys have participated in over 8,731 women's competitions.

They have placed 1st at least 2,903 times and top three at least 4,747 times.

They have stolen at least $1,600,087 in prizes and 446 awards...."

Even if this is an underestimation, if starts to show the sustained harm that this inclusion has had. It is indicative, of course, this information has not been verified as far as I can see, And it includes boys as well as adults and it includes any level of sport.

I have more examples that I can post if anyone is interested...

TLDR:

*2 male athletes in Maine negatively impacted over 1,600 girls

And in Guam just one male player injured 3 female players IN ONE GAME.

But sure.... just a few....

Boiledbeetle · 18/06/2025 18:08

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/06/2025 17:57

Will a caramel wafer do? It’s dark chocolate…

I'm sorry but this beetle does not do dark chocolate.

<adds additional 67 stirs to anti clockwise cauldron stirs for the egregious crime of not knowing such vitally important information.>

Waitwhat23 · 18/06/2025 18:10

And there is of course the protest outside the EHRC by the 'Pissed off Trannies' who poured bottles of piss over themselves. I can't attach a photo (too big) but a quick google will show you (you might want some eye bleach).

See many actual women pouring piss over themselves? Or holding up posters expressing a similar sentiment towards trans people?

No. Because we're not the extremists.

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