NHS Policy Audit - working party -Thread #3

[KnottyAuty]

NHS Policy Audit - working party -Thread #3

Original thread #1 here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5291237-nhs-policy-audit-working-party?page=1
Thread #2:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5322494-nhs-policy-audit-working-party-thread-2

This is a thread about “keeping the receipts” on NHS Policies prior to the Supreme Court ruling on 16th April 2025.

Our working theory is that there were no single sex spaces for NHS Staff or Patients in the entire country before that date, having all been removed by stealth.

We are aiming to prove this by auditing websites and policies for all the UK trusts and using the results to raise public awareness.

As well as recording what has happened historically, the information will form a baseline so we can check which Trusts comply or defy the judgement in due course...

We are working around the country region by region. If you fancy getting involved in a bit of grassroots feminism then please do join in to help!?

Each trust takes about an hour to research and you can upload online without giving any personal details away. Comment below and we can give you the link to an online survey - it changes for each region.

Thanks soooo much to all the vipers who have helped so far and @twoloons for doing a great job with the thread wrangling!

From the Times article mentioned above:

It will also make clear that it will not be deemed as discrimination to exclude trans people from those facilities and that services will be allowed to request birth certificates to ensure single-sex services are protected.

Anyone see a problem with Birth Certificates? I do? What about those TiMs who have obtained new birth certificates?

@KnottyAuty - I am happy to help in whatever way I can with the second wave audit.

Thanks! The Stage 2 NHS checks are all allocated but thanks for the offer!

Yes I absolutely see a problem with birth certificates.

Even if the UK repeals the GRA, there is still a problem with foreign born TIMs, where their birth countries permit updated birth certificates. I think there might be a lot of countries which provide this. A few random examples:

• Ireland: Gender Recognition Act 2015, which authorizes trans individuals to change their legal gender on key documents—including birth certificates.
• Finland: Act on Legal Recognition of Gender (in Finnish: Laki sukupuolen vahvistamisesta), permits transgender individuals to obtain an updated birth certificate.
• South Africa: the Alteration of Sex Description and Sex Status Act, 2003 (Act No. 49 of 2003).
• France: the “Loi de modernisation de la justice du XXIᵉ siècle” (Law for the Modernization of Justice of the 21st Century), enacted on 18 November 2016.
• India: Transgender Persons (Protection of Rights) Act, 2019.
• Etc.

According to Chat GPT, the ONS estimate for mid 2023 is that about 18% of the UK population (11.4 million people) were born overseas.

So relying on whatever a birth certificate says is definitely problematic.

@KnottyAuty I am sure you are way ahead of me but just in case it’s helpful once you get the final report have you considered writing to Wes Streeting along with the perm secs for DHSC and NHS England?

I would go high level that this is evidence of institutional sex discrimination of female employees and female patients. It is also institutional non-compliance with the EA2010. I am sure Sex Matters would assist, that’s if they are not already on board.

Potentially you could look at a class action or a judicial review as this affects 51% of the population and 70%+ of the workforce.

Thanks - food for thought.

The class action is an interesting idea. I’m not an NHS staffer so it doesn’t apply to me but I suppose this evidence would help others. How do class actions typically work?

You are a potential patient (service user).

WRT class action this is out of my area of expertise which is why I suggested Sex Matters as they have access to legal professionals e.g. NC.

@KnottyAuty @TwoLoonsAndASprout quick question re back end rationalisation.

Where there is evidence of engagement with Stonewall / Rainbow Badge but no staff policy available - should we add Y against MSA/CSG in the staff column of the table?

Good question as I have got one of these in my set of trusts.

If there’s no Stonewall ranking or declared scheme on headers/blogs/socials then I’ve taken any evidence of recent contact with Rainbow badges as confirmation of self ID and put a Y in the table. Remember that Annex B mandates from the top so evidence of a protected space would have to be explicitly declared. Thanks!

@KnottyAuty @FarriersGirl @TwoLoonsAndASprout @Cantunseeit could I please double check whether we need the website addresses for the policies in the summary? I just looked at the Midlands document again and noticed there aren’t any 😀

Hi! Good question. The midlands examples you have has all the URLs as footnotes. It was a nightmare to do it that way so I changed the method after that.

Sorry for the confusion - please just refer to the midlands table to see the text layout but keep the URLs as you find them in the table for the region you’re checking…

That’s great, thank you! x

Hi @Blackmetallic - it may be too soon for this, but just thought I’d check - have you had a response to your FOI request for Kent and Medway?

Yes - they have sent their Gender Identity Transitioning At Work policy.
I could send the policy over, or I could fill in a jotform if you're able to DM one to me?

@KnottyAuty, what’s the best approach for this?

Hi. Sorry I’m not on my laptop until later tomorrow. Another entry on the original SE England Jotform? We can pick up at the back end?

@KnottyAuty if you still need help with this I’ve got some time next week (unless of course there is more NHS stuff to be done first) x

Hi. Thanks! I've been away this week and have some pressing work deadlines so I haven't had a look but I can maybe send you a link to have a look at tomorrow?

The question about how to get the strongest reaction. To make the most of what has been achieved.
Can we raise some money to buy an hour of Nicola Cunningham's time? Consult her. Or the Solicitor who works for Sandie Peggie.
Who is a good journalist to use this? Hadley Freeman at Sunday Times?
Maybe go to Sunday Times or Daily Mail first. We are looking to use them to get max effect, not marry them. But we want a lasting change not just a few days fireworks.
Ask JKR. She has a team. Approach via her agent.
Do not hide the lamp under a 'whatdycallit'.

@KnottyAuty I know you’ve been working behind the scenes, do you know if the Dept of Health or any NHS organisations might be on the list that EHRC has written to about compliance with the law and not allowing self ID?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5399949-ehrc-is-taking-regulatory-action-against-organisations-in-the-policing-education-and-health-sectors-whose-policies-misrepresent-equality-law-on-single-sex-spaces?reply=146726125

sorry - I don’t know

holidays and some huge work deadlines have been interfering with my time for the audit. Hoping to be back on the case shortly!

Came across this old thread. Covers a lot of ground that @GreenAllOver has uncovered on patient accommodation but may be of interest to those following this thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007?page=1

Just an update as it’s been a bit quiet on the thread. There’s a lot going on behind the scenes!

Big shout out to @Cantunseeit @TwoLoonsAndASprout @FarriersGirl @Mipe @teawamutu have all been beavering away - sorting and checking all the results ready for issue.

Edited to add: Of course a massive shout out to @SeaStoat who did all the FOIs last year for us to stumble on, and without whom our results would have been very sparse indeed?!

@Cantunseeit had done the most amazing analysis and is holding us all to account to make the results as accurate and truly representative as we can!

There’s possibly up to a week more of checking and counting to do before we’ve got the headline figures. And a national broadsheet are lined up to take them. They might be able to convert the data into an interactive map for full transparency and accessibility which will be great. Info from over 200 trusts is pretty impenetrable in its raw form 🤓

This release will be for England only. @Mipe had kindly volunteered to go back to the Scottish results to re-process them. We did that region first and weren’t using any particular system. So we will then have all the UK regions covered - hopefully by October.

Hopefully we can find somewhere to host the data as a permanent record in due course. If anyone has any ideas or contacts who can help. Please do let me know

So it’s exciting but exhausting at the moment. Thanks for all the help and efforts and encouragement 😘 We’ve all achieved an amazing amount of work together in under 6 months?!? What an amazing bunch of vipers you all are 🥰

Will keep you posted as we know what’s happening and as articles start coming out. Watch this space

Thank you all so much, you are wonderful.